Rangers: Buyers at the Trade Deadline? Forget it.
by AZRangerFan on Jan 24, 2010 9:04 PM EST
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PrintWell, we’re back to square one…again. After promising wins over Montreal and Tampa Bay last week, the Rangers reverted to their old ways, getting blanked and beat up by Philadelphia on Thursday, then getting blasted by Les Canadiens at the Bell Centre last night.
Yes, the Eastern Conference is wide open and there’s still a decent chance the Rangers slip into the playoffs as a low seed. But we’ve been down this road before, and it’s essentially a dead end. Optimism is a wonderful thing, but if this organization thinks they're poised to make any noise in the postseason (if they even make it that far) they're sadly mistaken. Let me take it a step further: If management thinks the Rangers can legitimately contend for the Stanley Cup this year (and I have no idea why on earth they would think such a thing) they’re either: a) completely delusional; b) incredibly optimistic; or c) both A and B.
The Blueshirts have to do themselves and their staunch fans a favor and start shedding the dead weight (i.e. Redden, Brashear, Kotalik) by any means necessary, while keeping the core intact (i.e. Staal, Gaborik, Dubinsky, Callahan, Del Zotto, Lundqvist). If that means missing the playoffs this year, so be it.
I realize a lot can happen between now and March 3rd and a lot probably will happen with this wildly erratic team, but I’m already pleading with Sather and the Rangers to resist being "buyers" at the trade deadline.
Here are 5 reasons why the Rangers should be sellers:
1) There’s hope for the future. They’d almost certainly have to part with one of the following players in order to land a marquee player: Staal, Callahan, Dubinsky, or Anisimov. (Leave Del Zotto, Lundqvist and Gaborik out of the equation. They’re not going anywhere). Is it worth giving up a Marc Staal to get Ilya Kovalchuk? I say no way, not at this point. We all have our opinions on these younger players, but personally, I keep the youthful core in place, suck it up this year, then get to work during the off-season and attempt to further improve what we’ve already got. The nucleus is there and reinforcements will eventually come in the form of Grachev, Stepan, and Kreider. As critical as I’ve been towards Sather, I’d like to think he’s still shrewd enough to play the cards (that he’s ironically dealt himself) before pushing the panic button. Don’t risk further damage by trading away the future.
2) This team is going nowhere in the short-term. Let’s face it – the Rangers cannot realistically compete with teams like Washington, Pittsburgh, San Jose or Chicago right now. They simply don't have the personnel and this is no time to go for broke. If it was 1994 and they were a piece or two away from winning it all, yes, by all means pull the trigger if it makes sense. But make no mistake folks, this team couldn’t be any further from 1994.
3) This group needs stability. Give the young players time to play together and become a cohesive unit. This organization has been in a constant state of flux for as long as I can remember. They have to continue building for the long haul, instead of reverting back to the "win now" mentality. Easier said than done. I realize it's New York. Everyone wants instant gratification. But one Cup in 70 years proves that philosophy doesn’t work.
4) They have too many needs to address. A big, tough, defensive-minded defenseman, a la Brooks Orpik. A true #1 play-making center. A second line that provides consistent and timely scoring. A feared enforcer that can take a regular shift (and regular punishment) and be willing to stand up for his teammates night in and night out. The Rangers possess none of those. Only one need has potentially been addressed, and it only became an issue because of Steve Valiquette’s early-season implosion. It appears Chad Johnson could be the answer to the Valiquette problem. All other deficiencies? Much work to be done.
5) They're currently carrying too many players that have to be shown the door. We’ve talked about this ad nauseum. Redden, Roszival, Kotalik, and Brashear have to go. Housecleaning ought to be the first order of business. Again, easier said than done. Attempting to trade Wade Redden at this point is akin to listing your 15-year old defective Sylvania VCR on EBay - nobody’s going to be the least bit interested, and they’re certainly not going to offer you anything substantial in return.
I won’t rip into Roszival too much because he’s done some good things during his tenure in NY, but his time in the Big Apple is clearly up. He still has a modicum of trade value. Insert Ilkka Heikkinen into his spot and I don’t think you lose much. You gain youth, and you save a lot of money in the process. Get something for him if/while you can.
At this stage of the game, Kotalik’s generous contract and generally dismal play have made him all but immovable. If the Rangers can find a willing buyer, I’d gladly take a 4th rounder to unload that baggage.
The Brashear signing was a disaster from day 1. This one left most Ranger fans scratching their heads (and many others infuriated). He’s 37, he can’t fight anymore (on skates anyway), he can’t score, he’s been injured a good part of the year…so he’s essentially just taking up space, physically and cap-wise. But to his credit, he’s a millionaire. Good for him. Now please retire.
So...
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to be honest...
I hope they are sellers…
I don’t wanna pray for injuries..but maybe some desperate team trades for Rosival?
And I’mma keep bringing this up….if anyone really wants to blow the team up…gotta look at the King.
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
votes kinda lopsided eh? lol
""Attempting to trade Wade Redden at this point is akin to listing your 15-year old defective Sylvania VCR player on EBay – nobody’s going to be the least bit interested, and they’re certainly not going to offer you anything substantial in return.""——- great quote right here(I still own some vhs tapes that I’d rather watch then redden any day though!)
Si Vis Pacum Parabellum
Forget Redden, Brash and Kotalik
Can the Rangers trade Glen Sather?
by The Last Shall Become First on Jan 24, 2010 5:29 PM EST reply actions
sather has to be held accountable not torts ?
sather created this mess now he has to fix it poor torts just don,t have the horses to compete it goes way beyond scoring there is no leadership. but i dont think sather is going to be a seller at the deadline i think he will make a minor move to try and make a playoff push and try to unload kotalick. but it wii be one and done i n the first round because with the roster the way it is now they can not compete with the craps pens or devils its just the way it is thanks alot slats you suck ..
Not to toot our own horn...
…but this poll/comments shows the inherent wisdom of the fanbase of this site. To fans of a NYC-based team willing – and calling out – for a rebuild is almost the unthinkable. The allure of the big name (ala’ Lecavalier) trade, however, will probably win out due to short term visions of this ownership. :(
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
well……..you saved me the trouble of writing this story, LOL
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers
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by Jim Schmiedeberg on Jan 24, 2010 9:00 PM EST reply actions
Not so fast Jim…
Knowing this crazy team, they’ll rip off 5 wins in a row, and then we’ll all be talking about why they should be buyers! On second thought… nah, not likely to happen…
even if they do….it’s still a mirage…like seeing water in the desert
"and they're on their feet at the Garden"
I agree with the majority here and Sather should go, but since that is highly unlikely, Messier should at least be heading the choice of new players. Any other thoughts on who or who isn’t trustworthy on the management side?
Sather for Talon
just a thought- Dale Talon built the current Blackhawks and was then kicked to the curb so that Scotty B’s kid could take over. Hmmmm- aggressive, talented, physical team in Chicago vs uninspired, gutless team in NY. Mr Dolan- pick up the phone and see what it takes.
by RangerFanInChicago on Jan 24, 2010 11:05 PM EST reply actions
i feel that your third point is the most important
this “team” is not a real team…theres no gelling between the lines and that responsibility falls on everybody… management for trying to get short term high priced stop gaps to fill only one area of weakness, coaching for not keeping the same consistent lines shift in and shift out…yes they may start the same lines but they cant get into panic mode in the middle of the game…we’ve seen times where the lines have come together (home against Montreal and the lightening) but the minute the team doesnt start scoring torts and his crew begin shuffling the lines trying to find some magic combination. and lastly it falls on the players…yes some guys do step up and take a leadership position on and off the ice…but it needs to be a total team effort…from our (cough) captain (cough) to our rookies…and it should be some of our high priced skaters talking to the media and not just our franchise goalie who’s actually doing his job
for Kovalchuk yes, for Lecavallier no
I would trade some youth and picks etc. for Kovalchuk if we could sign him. I would not for Lecavallier. Having said that, I also think the rangers should sell/renegotiate/demote the cap drains (Rosy, Redden and Drury) and improve the team cap-wise to make a play for Kovalchuk or to improve in other areas with that $$$. Getting draft picks is nice, but unless they are top 2, you are basically putting the team’s hopes for a better future on winning a crapshoot of 18 year olds. To rebuild properly requires sucking badly first for a few years and getting the top picks. Are we prepared for that?
by bigaudio on Jan 25, 2010 1:25 AM EST reply actions
No Kovalchuk, No more Redden, Rozsival, Kotalik, Brashear & Sather.......also
No more Drury. I have had it with him as well. He is taking up too much cap space and he has been a failure as a Captain to the Rangers. Where has he been? He isn’t stepping up to the opponents on the ice as well.
I honestly hope Vinny LeCavalier doesn’t come here either. I don’t want the Rangers to trade for these high priced players that are wanting to keep that salary cap high and not worth the paper it’s written on.
Here’s the thing that must be embarrasing to Drury and the entire dead weight players that are on the Rangers right now. Only Vinny Prospal has been worth every single dollar when he signed that contract. At least Prospal comes out ready, hungry and wanting to play his ass off for the Rangers sweater.
I agree with Torts. With kids will take the bumps in the road, but these veterans who are embarassing this hockey club we can’t tolerate it. These players should be released. Buy them out & send them away now.
I understand that the three Rangers prospects that were on the World Junior Championship USA team aren’t ready to go, because they haven’t had a taste of real professional hockey. But I’m sorry to say that in Soccer, if your old enough your good enough. And in my opinion Stepan, Kreider & Bourque should sign a contract and get them up here now. I think they are ready for this level & that’s my opinion.
LeCavalier should stay in Tampa Bay & don’t bother entertain any ideas to trade for Kovalchuk. Let him go back to Russia. Kick out the players that have lost their heart for this team and bring up the kids from Hartford in the AHL or who is also doing well down in Charlotte in the ECHL.
I’m not going to the Garden anymore this year. The 6-2 Win against Montreal was my last. I’ve had enough of the Jeckyll & Hyde crap this team loves to do to us.
by NYR #35 Richter on Jan 25, 2010 2:17 AM EST reply actions
And once again I have to say this.
This is not John Tortorella’s fault. He is trying to get this team to play with heart and passion. These veterans just don’t want to play & it’s also Sather’s fault for ruining this team. Don Maloney should return and be the G.M. of this team.
by NYR #35 Richter on Jan 25, 2010 2:22 AM EST reply actions
Further evidence of Sather's ineptitude...
Check out the salary structure of the Rangers v. Devils… It’s pretty shocking that our Captain, Drury, is making over $8mil and their Captain, Langenbrunner, is only making $2.8mil… Who would you rather have? I love him to death, but Lundquist makes $6.875mil and Brodeur only makes $5.2mil??? Tell me how that makes sense… Paul Martin is their only defensemen making over $3mil. We have 2 that make WAY over $3mil and I’d take Martin over any of our blueliners.
The list of salary failures can go on and on… Sather has done a horrendous job putting this team together. He has no idea how to get value and talent and should be sent packing. Sooner is better than later.
Lastly, how about using some punctuation in our posts. It’s very difficult to read an 8 or 10 sentence paragraph with no periods or commas.
its pretty simple. the devils keep their players over a long period of time. they have team loyalty and will take less money to stay there.
how could a player have team loyalty if every year we have 15 new players?
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
exellent point!
I think this is one of our biggest issues.
because really… our players aren’t that bad.
The Devils feels like a fulltime job with lovely coworkers, while the rangers feel like bus stop with cranky ladies who hates to stand in line.
We should be sellers. But we have to sign some good players and be loyal to them.
If the Rangers wants loyal players that really gives all they’ve got every game then The Rangers need to be loyal to those players and dont keep changing half the team every year.
but we all know why the rangers keep changing half the team every year.
It’s like a evil spiral that needs to be stopped.
Sell Sell Sell and then rebuild whatever it takes.
Let me get this straight?
So…… we show loyalty by selling all our players?. Then we show loyalty to the new players?
Okey Dokey. Not sure me understand.
by christopherm on Jan 25, 2010 8:23 AM EST up reply actions
Well do you want to be loyal to Rozi, Kotalik, Brashear and Redden?
I didn’t think so!
That’s why we should be sellers and get rid of the underperforming players that dont give a crap and try to build a solid team.
The players we should be loyal to is our core players and keep building around them.
It’s not like we can decide tomorrow to be loyal to all our players..
We need some players that deserve the rangers loyalty (Dubi, hank, Gabby, Callahan, Avery among others)
I say get rid of the underachiving players at all costs.
Then start rebuildning and then try to keep a solid team without trading/not resigning them (unless they suck of course)
I know this is really hard to achive but i think it’s the only way to make players more loyal to the team and fans. And while we’re trying to keep most of our players then chemistry will start to evolve among some players.
Then the players who dont fit the team will be more obvious and we can try to trade the players that isn’t a fit for the rangers.
Kotalik is a bust and Brashear made no sense.
But Roz and Redden are in the plus. There is no way we will get anything comparable for them. So get over it.
Establishing set lines who can actually get through the neutral zone and crash the net and create second chance goals is what we need.
A consistent second line.
by christopherm on Jan 25, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions
Get over what?
I’m not talking about a trade… I’m not talking about a change that’s can be done over the offseason.. I’m talking about a change that will take a few years.
The main thing is that i agree with Moshe that we need to be more loyal to our players while in the same time we need to get rid of the underachivers..
It’s been a while since we were cup contenders… so someone is doing something wrong. team chemistry and loyal players gives the team a huge boost.
Comparable to Rozy and Redden?
Are you serious?
You think it’s hard to replace a 14 pt, +2 defenseman and an 8 point, +1 defenseman? Trade them for a pair of socks and used diaper if you can get rid of their cap hit.
Seriously…can you mass produce the rose-colored glasses you see this team through? The fan base could use them about now.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 25, 2010 1:33 PM EST up reply actions
14 pts +2 compared to 30pts -14
Those are the glasses I look through.
by christopherm on Jan 25, 2010 1:38 PM EST up reply actions
My bad
DZ is at 24 pt and -14
Girardi 14pts and -10
by christopherm on Jan 25, 2010 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
so what are you saying?
resign Redden and Rozi and trade away MDZ and Girardi?
Stats isnt everything…
Where have I said resign them or get rid of the kids.
But if your projects are in the neg. shouldn’t you stand pat with a pair of vets till they get tighter in the back? Or maybe they can’t get. Only time will tell.
The problem is scoring from our offense, not from the d. We need set lines and a productive second line. The defense except for a couple of big blowouts haven’t been the problem.
No one is going to give us anything for Redden and Roz.
And dumping them is not realistic. They are steady defenders doing what we brought them here to do.
Rebuilding means trusting Dubi, Staal and DZ and the kids on their way and holding the fort with reliable defenders.
Instead of ranting why don’t you enlighten us in who we would get for Roz and Redden and who would take them anyway.
by christopherm on Jan 25, 2010 3:37 PM EST up reply actions
Redden was brought here to QB the power play. That’s not what he’s doing. Rozsival was also re-signed to be an offensive defenseman. Also not what he’s doing.
They’re giving little to no offensive production for $11.5m. Yay, they’re a +3 combined. Fantastic. Rozsival plays 2nd pair competition and starts in the offensive zone about 52% of the time. Redden plays 3rd pair minutes/competition, with the highest teammate quality. I should hope they could stay positive for that money.
You’re right, nobody is taking them, for the exact reasons they suck. They provide nothing for a huge contract. If you can get anything for them, you do it and replace them with anything you can find.
And yes, scoring is an issue. But you can’t add any scoring of worth while the albatross twins are in the back end. They tried with Higgins and Kotalik and failed epically.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 25, 2010 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Using Tom Awad’s GVT (Goals versus Threshold) stat:
Girardi 3.8
Rozsival 3.4
MDZ 2.8 (and that’s cause he has a -0.3 cause Torts inexplicably used him for the shootout)
Redden 2.2
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 25, 2010 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
To that end
MDZ is 19, so you live with his mistakes. The 24 points is the key, he’s an offensive defenseman.
And we know Girardi’s had an awful year, and he is probably worth shedding also because of it.
And my point anyway…if you trade Rozsival and Redden, it’s damn near impossible not to get two d-man in return that can’t produce those numbers at a 1/5 of the cost.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 25, 2010 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
It's because of Lou
Lou Lamoriello has been doing this for years and it works. He finds and attracts players who want to buy into his system of hockey and keeps them. When was the last time the Devils had a rebuilding year? or missed the playoffs? Players want to play and stay in NJ because Lou presents with a winning formula and it shows in their numbers over the last decade. It’s a shame that fans don’t see this and sell out games considering the consistency of the team.
Funny quote from this article “. . . the Rangers cannot realistically compete with Washington, Pittsburgh, San Jose or Chicago”
I love how the Devils are left off this list even though they are ahead of Pitt at the time it was written.
I love how the Devils are left off this list even though they are ahead of Pitt at the time it was written. Bias Ranger fan can see all the problems with his team but can’t say his team can’t compete with the Devils.
by StabbAmonte on Jan 25, 2010 11:29 AM EST up reply actions
The problem is Dolan and Sather
As long as Dolan allows big checks to be spent for worthless free agents, Sather will spend.
its unlikely that Sather and Dolan will allow the kids to gel and gradually take over.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
The first part is true…the Rangers will never have $10m of cap room.
The 2nd part may not be. They’re already played as many as 4 rookies in a game this year and 8 total (and that doesn’t count Parenteau and Lisin who have never played a full season).
Combine that with some of the core guys that are here: Dubinsky (23), Callahan (24), Staal (23), and yes…Gaborik (27) and Henrik (27)
They are a relatively young team. Purging a few veterans and getting some more kids here is a future that does look like it can happen.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 25, 2010 9:57 AM EST up reply actions
The problem is with Dolan
Let’s face it , this is a business. MSG and Dolan want the income from playoff tickets.
There is enormous pressure to make it every year, if even for 2 home games.
I’d love to hear if anyone knows how much input Dolan gets with the Rangers management to make the playoffs.
But throw in the fact that it is NY and its hard for the Rangers to say they are building. I personally have never heard that word from the Rangers ever.
by truebluesince75 on Jan 25, 2010 9:32 AM EST reply actions
Truer words have never been spoken.
Dolan has a ton of input on the makeup of the Rangers. Most of the pre-lockout signings were because of Dolan.
by Dave Shapiro on Jan 25, 2010 10:13 AM EST up reply actions
Remember MSG is being spun-off by Cablevision. This will not be a good thing because Cablevision has saddled the new company with lots of debt, that is, Cablevision had the new company borrow money so it could take distributions to Cablevision prior to the spin-off. Add to the problems an undercapitalized owner, on top of being run by Jim Dolan (Cablevision will still be the largest shareholder). The goal will continue to be just make the play-offs, as oppossed to building a team that can win the Cup. To make a profit, the Rangers will be buyers because MSG “needs” to make the playoffs to be profitable. Winning is no longer the goal, profit is. I guess instead of buying seat licenses at the Meadowlands we could all buy stock in the new company and vote out the Dolans. Well,… nevermind. I got carried away.
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jan 25, 2010 10:23 AM EST up reply actions
These are my fears realized
Money always trumps winning.
by truebluesince75 on Jan 25, 2010 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
It's actually worse than just $$$
Cablevision has protected itself and the Dolans from actions by MSG arising from the obvious conflict of interests involved with DOlan’s control and ownership of MSG and Cablevision. Thus, the Dolan’s can resolve all benefits in favor of Cablevision and against MSG. The folliwng is form the Madison Square Garden Inc. SEC filing.
We Share Certain Key Executives and Directors with Cablevision Which Means Those Executives Will Not Devote Their Full Time and Attention to Our Affairs and the Overlap may Give Rise to Conflicts.
Following the Distribution, our Executive Chairman, James L. Dolan, will also continue to serve as the President and Chief Executive Officer of Cablevision and our President and Chief Executive Officer, Hank J. Ratner, will continue to serve as a Vice Chairman of Cablevision. This arrangement is similar to the historical situation whereby Messrs. Dolan and Ratner are serving or have served as senior officers of both companies. As a result, following the Distribution, the two most senior officers of the Company will not be devoting their full time and attention to the Company’s affairs. In addition, immediately following the Distribution, eight members of our Board of Directors will also be directors of Cablevision, and several of our directors will continue to serve as employees of Cablevision concurrently with their service on our Board of Directors. These officers and directors may have actual or apparent conflicts of interest with respect to matters involving or affecting each company. For example, there will be the potential for a conflict of interest when we or Cablevision look at acquisitions and other corporate opportunities that may be suitable for both companies. Also, conflicts may arise if there are issues or disputes under the commercial arrangements that will exist between Cablevision and us. In addition, after the Distribution, certain of our directors and officers will continue to own Cablevision stock and options to purchase Cablevision stock, as well as cash performance awards with any payout based on Cablevision’s performance, which they acquired or were granted prior to the Distribution, including Messrs. Dolan and Ratner. These ownership interests could create actual, apparent or potential conflicts of interest when these individuals are faced with decisions that could have different implications for our Company and Cablevision. See "Certain Relationships and Related Party Transactions — Certain Relationships and Potential Conflicts of Interest" for a discussion of certain procedures we will institute to help ameliorate such potential conflicts that may arise.
34
Our Overlapping Directors and Executive Officers with Cablevision may Result in the Diversion of Corporate Opportunities and Other Conflicts to Cablevision and Provisions in Our Amended and Restated Certificate of Incorporation may Provide Us No Remedy in That Circumstance.
The Company’s amended and restated certificate of incorporation will acknowledge that directors and officers of the Company may also be serving as directors, officers, employees, consultants or agents of Cablevision and its subsidiaries and that the Company may engage in material business transactions with such entities. The Company will renounce its rights to certain business opportunities and the Company’s amended and restated certificate of incorporation will provide that no director or officer of the Company who is also serving as a director, officer, employee, consultant or agent of Cablevision and its subsidiaries will be liable to the Company or its stockholders for breach of any fiduciary duty that would otherwise exist by reason of the fact that any such individual directs a corporate opportunity (other than certain limited types of opportunities set forth in our certificate of incorporation) to Cablevision or any of its subsidiaries instead of the Company, or does not refer or communicate information regarding such corporate opportunities to the Company. These provisions in our amended and restated certificate of incorporation will also expressly validate certain contracts, agreements, assignments and transactions (and amendments, modifications or terminations thereof) between the Company and Cablevision and/or any of its subsidiaries and, to the fullest extent permitted by law, provide that the actions of the overlapping directors or officers in connection therewith are not breaches of fiduciary duties owed to the Company, any of its subsidiaries or their respective shareholders. See "Description of Capital Stock — Certain Corporate Opportunities and Conflicts."
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jan 25, 2010 11:09 AM EST up reply actions
thanks
Certainly a conflict of interest, although that was a tough read. My lawyer-speak is rather poor. Is there a translation for the layman?
by truebluesince75 on Jan 25, 2010 11:38 AM EST up reply actions
Translation
If the interests of Cablevision and the new MSG conflict, the Dolan’s (who control both) are free to side with Cablevision to the detriment of MSG.
For example, at the time of the spin-off one of Cablevision’s subsidiaries will owe the new MSG $190 million. Payment is at the discretion of Cablevision even if MSG needs teh capital and must borrow at higher interest rates than Cablevision is paying on the $190 million.
There could also be conflicts on how much MSG should charge Cablevision to carry its programming.
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jan 25, 2010 11:43 AM EST up reply actions
So 1 and out is how Dolan will always lean
This opposes any chance of the rangers “rebuilding”. Dolan wants as much money for Cablevision as possible.
by truebluesince75 on Jan 25, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
wouldn’t this make it next to impossible to sell?
by christopherm on Jan 25, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
sounds like it to me
and it would explain why it has never happened.
by truebluesince75 on Jan 25, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
So maybe its time to accept what type of team we will always have and stop speculating on whom we should keep and whom we should unload.
The only way to make a real difference is in not paying for seats. Hit em where it hurts!
by truebluesince75 on Jan 25, 2010 12:03 PM EST up reply actions
Einstein was correct
This whole situation reminded me of a famous quote:
"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."
It applies to us fans as we are expecting the Rangers to do something they never do, rebuild and become sellers. It is also applicable to the management and how this team is constructed.
by truebluesince75 on Jan 25, 2010 12:12 PM EST up reply actions
Fiscally speaking...
This team’s greatest asset is its broadcast contract. That will go unchanged. Ditto advertisers who salivate at the chance for a venue like MSG.
The seats…yes, that can hit where it hurts in profit margin. Still, most of these are corporate sales anyway, tax writeoffs for the beautiful people.
Failure to buy concessions means they swap out items for lower price points. See previous comment on: beautiful people. They can afford that stuff.
Trimming payroll WILL impact franchise value, as it removes significant cost from operating expenses. Still, remember that payroll and team operation costs are mutually exclusive for every pro sports team. While one impacts the other, the budgets are managed separately. (I’m certain there are several other folks on this board with ties to pro teams who can second, third this!)
Still, I’d love for the team to get sold akin to the NJ Nets. New ownership with a love of the City and sport.
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
If you’ve paid for seats already, go and don’t buy food, beer, soda, programs etc. If you must buy, buy from the guys who walk around not from the “windows.” The vendors need to earn a living.
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jan 25, 2010 12:14 PM EST up reply actions
Let’s not go overboard. The italian hero and bass ale are my favorite part.
by christopherm on Jan 25, 2010 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
I never buy anything
My frugal father never let me buy anything, especially that overpriced cotton candy with the hat. So I never give any extra money to the Garden.
Too late for season tickets this year and let’s be honest, I have no intention of giving up my tickets unless they pull a Giants stadium and charge me the right to sit in my seat.
So I figure we have about 2 years left before this happens.
by truebluesince75 on Jan 25, 2010 12:17 PM EST up reply actions
I can see you’ve never been to a game with 5 year old.
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jan 25, 2010 12:26 PM EST up reply actions
nope
but I will someday.
I am holding to my belief that I will sticks to my guns.
But of course this is based on speculation. Let’s see what happens in practice.
by truebluesince75 on Jan 25, 2010 12:29 PM EST up reply actions
That’s the answer.punish yourself. I’ll keep drinking.
by christopherm on Jan 25, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
Now that my boys are teenagers and could care less about anything but girls, the beer(s) and hero are back on the can do list
by christopherm on Jan 25, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
We need to find you a close by sub shop.
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jan 25, 2010 12:34 PM EST up reply actions
I was going to say....
now that the Garden searches for “terror” reasons, they will just take your sub away before you get in through the doors.
I have even tried the old " I am Kosher, diabetic, gluten-allergy, etc" and no deal.
by truebluesince75 on Jan 25, 2010 12:37 PM EST up reply actions
Believe it or not...
The TB Rays allow you to bring in anything you want as long as it’s somewhat sealed.
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
Daddy, daddy, daddy, daddy....!!!!
i want popcorn.
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
As long as we're pipedreaming
NHL Players under no circumstance that I would trade:
Henrik, Gaborik, Dubinsky, Anisimov, Staal, Del Zotto
NHL Players I’d be willing to deal for an absolute, established stud (i.e. Kovalchuk) and nothing else: Avery, Callahan, Gilroy.
Everyone else can be liquidated.
[Sadly though] Reality is they’re going to stop-gap and make a move to try to push for the playoff spot. So while they may unload Kotalik and a couple other parts, there’s little chance that someone with actual value like Prospal will get moved unless they go on some kind of 1-10-0 streak that completely annihilates their playoff chances.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
Prospal?
How is getting rid of one of the free agent signings that is actually paying off going to help?
Let’s just get some set lines and quit juggling everything once we go down a goal. That’s a start.
by christopherm on Jan 25, 2010 9:56 AM EST up reply actions
Prospal is 34, a UFA who will certainly cost more than $1.1m next year, and is on a team that desperately needs to rebuild. He can fetch valuable picks/prospects. That’s how it would help.
Not trading him only makes sense if you’re trying to make a playoff push, which for this roster is something that should not be done, but in the end will be because playoffs = Dolan money. .
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 25, 2010 10:00 AM EST up reply actions
desperately needs to rebuild???????
You’re kidding right. We’re not Carolina. Solid keeper. Solid front line. Promising young defense. We are rebuilding. Just not quick enough for you I see.
by christopherm on Jan 25, 2010 10:04 AM EST up reply actions
While Prospal may have some value in the market, I don’t see it very likely that they’ll move him.
1 – Understands the Torts system
2 – Probably deserves the “C” more than the current owner
3 – Cheap at 1.1mm right now
4 – Since he’s still being paid by TBL, he probably won’t need that huge of a raise next season – I’ll bet he’d sign for < 3mm (i.e. Kotalik #‘s)
5 – He’s had solid chemistry with Gaborik.
Him, I’d keep.
by dbmaven on Jan 25, 2010 10:14 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
We're closer to Carolina than Pittsburgh
They have a solid keeper and solid front line too. And they don’t have 3 guys tying up $18.5m in cap room who have fewer points combined than Dan Boyle.
Yes, we’re a younger team. But you can only go so far being carried by 2 superstars and spare parts.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 25, 2010 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
I hope not...
Carolina is run by one of the biggest SOB’s around, and is cheap as all heck. What’s our excuse?
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
I kinda agree, we are rebuilding and are on track to possibly make the playoffs. Most rebuilding teams are expected not to.
But yet...
They’re also 6 points above having the 4th pick in the draft. Heck, Boston has lost 5 in a row and they’re still only 1 point out of a spot.
In the Bettman NHL everyone is in playoff contention unless they’re truly terrible in one facet of the game: Edmonton – goaltending, Toronto – penalty kill, Carolina – atrocious road team.
Given the choice, I’d rather sell, tank, and grab a top 5 pick, immediate impact type guy than try to buy a rental, make the playoffs, and end up with a mid-first at best, assume the rental doesn’t cost us our 1st.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 25, 2010 11:58 AM EST up reply actions
If they're gonna buy...
can they buy some tough blue-liners?
Maybe some team likes Girardi? Maybe some team likes Kotalik?
Hopefully..if they’re gonna buy anything…its some toughness in their rear end…
You've got to be very careful if you don't know where you are going, because you might not get there
Mara
I always thought he was a stand-up d-man. Mara never would have let Gaborik get punches thrown at him like Girardi did.
What is is getting from Mtl? about 1 mil? That would have been money well spent.
by truebluesince75 on Jan 25, 2010 10:48 AM EST up reply actions
Stats don’t show the whole picture. Hell, Rosy and Redden are both plus players. He was a tough defenseman when he played for the Rangers. I personally have not seen him play for MTL, and he was scratched on Sat.
by truebluesince75 on Jan 25, 2010 11:27 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Plus is Plus
And our “superstar” scoring defenders are way in the negative.
Consistent lines will improve scoring more than giving up on defenders who actually can defend in lieu of finding the next Leetch.
face it there was only one Brian and the coach juggles way to much.
by christopherm on Jan 25, 2010 11:34 AM EST up reply actions
Agreed
Someone please leave a copy of this article next to Sather’s crapper!! He can really get some use out of it. I fear for the team before the trade deadline. Stick it out this year no point in letting go of one of the few valuable players the Rangers have this season. If anything give some players from Hartford a chance. Who knows, someone just might be able to score a goal.
Defending Sather...
It’s not as if every one of the supposed jackarse contracts we’re stuck were met with enthusiasm.
The Gomez/Drury signings equated to snaring two semi-elite players at the peak of their careers, proven winners. Rozisval was coming off a career year with our own team. Redden – like Mattius Ohlund with TB – provided a much needed veteran defenseman who could play special teams well. Brashear was intended to provide more scoring that Colton Orr, same toughness. Kotalik a proven shootout (best in the NHL) and
powerplay goal scorer.
If there’s a crime to be had, we overpaid for every single one of these players…not player selection.
The Prospal lovefest stems from his being the only UFA that didn’t bankrupt us…and produced. Truth be told, we’re damn lucky that Gaborik has stayed healthy or we’d be taking his head off too for the dollars attached to that long term deal. Also, what if Lundqvist proved a flash in the pan, peaking just before the extension?
Akin to being upside down in a car trade-in, it makes little sense to flip cap demise for less demise but for longer a period. Unless there’s a way to wipe these contracts off the board, period, we need to eat them.
Related – and be it the Coach’s fault or not – our roster is actually quite good from top to bottom. The players mentioned above would be thriving in alternate systems…albeit not perhaps in the same one, collectively. Again, if there’s a method to the madness, let’s see it.
Finally, one can’t help but see the exact same contracting/personnel problems with the NYR appearing in the NYK. Redden is our Eddy Curry (too much potential, not enough execution), Rozisval = Larry Hughes (inconsistent flashes of brilliance), Kotalik = Nate Robinson (short term fix good at only certain aspects of the game), Brashear = Jared Jeffries (defensively strong, 1-dimensional), Drury = David Lee (very good at what he does, but not in the role he’s expected to serve). I’ll call Sean Avery our Al Harrington, Prospal = Chris Duhon. From a contractual only (versus insanity of comparing across sports) perspective, this is an arguably uncanny approach to free agency across the two teams.
There is clearly a Dolan stamp on these that needs to change. I’m longing for the days of Neil Smith who knew how to position players for growth.
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
"It's not as if every one of the supposed jackarse signings wasn't met with enthusiasm."
Look at me; I CAN type. Errr.
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
Kotalik wasn’t signed for the shootout. Tortorella’s system isn’t about ties – you either win (somewhat spectacularly) or lose big (possibly even more spectacularly). Witness the few shootouts the #NYR have been in this year as compared to last.
While I agree with you that the more egregious crime was the fact that every one of the players you mention were overpaid, I’d also argue that the selections were, at least in some cases, faulty.
Not, perhaps, in the cases of Drury and Rozsival (at the time of the signings). But signing 2 big-money centers at the same time?? Dumb. Signing Redden, who clearly was sliding downhill in skills and value?? Equally dumb. For nearly the same money, they could have gotten Brian Campbell (except he didn’t want to be here, apparently).
As has been said so many times in so many different places – let Sather do the trades. He’s pretty damned good at getting more value then he sends away.
But let somebody else do the free-agent gig – he sucks at it. Big time.
From your lips to Sather's ears, db
If he can wiggle his way out of cap hell via trades, I’m all about it.
I will, however, agree to disagree.
The Gomez/Drury simultaneous signings: At that point in time, we lacked anyone who could potentially fill a #1 and/or #2 center role. They’re both very different players who thrived in defensive minded systems. If we could sign them both again for half the salary…most would do it all over again. And perhaps carry with these signings lower performance expectations.
Redden was still hovering around 40 points a year, and again – at half the price – would’ve been our leading defenseman in scoring. That is, if Rozisval failed to repeat his prowess from his big year.
Finally, Kotalik was heavily touted for his shootout prowess. He led the league in shootout victory goals the previous season. Ditto on powerplay contributions. Google ‘kotalik shootout’ and you’ll see this seconded.
Look, I’m not standing up for Sather, but we – as fans – demaded quick fixes and got them.
Ditto on a more ‘disciplinarian’ coach to cure Renney’s softness. We got that too.
Perhaps if this franchise adopted a franchise approach to draft/gameplay/strategy – ie NJ, ANA, EDM, BUF – we’d be consistently competitive without endless rollercoasters.
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
Agreeing to disagree is no problem here – but I’ll add a “last word” on Kotalik – I know what he was “heavily touted” for. My point is that the #NYR did not sign him for shootouts. That’s all. He was definitely signed for the power play and a (misplaced) hope that he’d contribute at even strength.
Anyway – based on some of the things Sather hasn’t done (he refused to part with Dubi and Staal for Heatley, for example), and the draft system is now highly ranked – a HUGE change from years past – we see some signs that your desired “franchise approach” is taking root. Add to that the fact that Torts talks (I realize he doesn’t always walk the walk !) about “being willing to live with the mistakes and growing pains of the youngsters”…..and I submit that there is hope.
Of course, if the expected ‘panic’ trade occurs, we’ll post a new motto for Blueshirt Banter
Abandon hope – all ye who enter here!
Forget WHY Kotalik is here...how do we finally get rid of him? :)
Is the ‘franchise approach’ I called for really taking root? It seems disjointed. We’ve got talent all over the place, but are we a transition team? Speed team? Defensive minded? Wing dominated? Special teams?
In MDZ, we clearly filled a gap on needing puck moving defensemen. Part of a bigger picture…or are we just selecting talent as it comes along, feeding the system appropriately?
I’d like to see more Swede/Finnish players come through here (ie Heikkenen, sorry for butchering his name), all who seem to do very well in our system until we dump them too soon. :( Ditto on the Czechs who thrive in it.
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
PS Thanks for being civil. :)
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
I’ve heard that the Caps are hunting for Kovy…
i dont remember Bäckström resigning soooooooo… anyway of stealing him? or maybe Semin? ( i know they’re building around bäckström and Ovi)
I havent checked washingtons saleries but with players like ovi, bäckström, Semin and eventually Kovy they should be close… right?
Semin's rumored in that trade
And the Caps can afford a 3 month rental of Kovy, which is what the trade would be. Backstrom’s not going anywhere either.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 25, 2010 1:10 PM EST up reply actions
They're in the system
Dubinsky, Anisimov, and (eventually) Stepan.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 25, 2010 1:25 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
i really like these players but i think dubi is 2nd line, anisimov 3rd line.
Stepan could be a 1st line center someday.
but it might take some years before that.
Dubi is 23yrs old with comparable (though slightly lesser) numbers to Savard at that age, who is outproducing Savard, Kopitar, Zetterberg among others at ES right now (in points per ice time), despite playing some of the toughest minutes in the league. He’s at least a 2nd line player. I don’t think people appreciate how good he really is at this stage.
Anisimov averaged a ppg as a 20 yr old in the AHL. There’s a very good track record of players of that type becoming stars. He’s not used enough but he’s at least a 2nd liner also.
Stepan is on the correct path, but yeah, he might be 1-2 years away.
I will say, if any of them end up on the 3rd line, it’s because the other two pushed them there. They average 21 yrs old between the 3 of them. That’s a really bright future up the middle.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 25, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
I didnt know Dubi was doin that good.
but still. i would like to see him taking at least one step forward.
I have no problem seeing him on the first line right now.
But i feel that a great playmaking center would be a better match with gabby.
but i do hope that we can keep these players.
as you said.. They have a bright future and could very well be the best thing that has happend to the rangers in a year or two.
Patience
It eludes Rangers fans….going back to Savard..he wasn’t a ppg player til he was 26-27, on his 3rd team, and paired with Kovalchuk. Dubi has an edge in that he already has Gaborik.
I do agree, Dubi as he stands this minute is not a 1st line center. He does need another step. This year is a good start though. (and I haven’t even mentioned that’s he been very good to excellent on the PK thus far)
And I should mention with AA…..he projects to at least a 2nd liner. He’s still too young to tell if he’ll take the step either.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 25, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions
From what I'm told
He’s struggling. But he’s 19, and his numbers match Anisimov’s at 19. Next year will be the key with Grachev.
If he gets to the ppg level next year at age 20…well I’ve already been over that.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 25, 2010 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
One more thing
Decent article on the AHL to NHL leap:
http://www.puckprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=337
It had projected AA to be a 22-23-45 guy this year. He’s at an 11-12-23 pace. So that’s not good. But neither his ice time. With Dubinsky’s ice time he’s on a 17-18-35 pace.
The other bad news…everyone else on the list on the bottom has exceeded the projections.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 25, 2010 2:43 PM EST up reply actions
The Savard dump still bothers me to no end
He was clearly going to become a legitimate playmaker when we dumped him. It was like Tony Granato all over again.
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
...and ditto for Nigel Dawes and Petr Prucha
Not All-Stars, but clearly had potential.
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
Eh
Dawes is almost 25 and about a 40 pt player (which I know on this team makes him a superstar). He’ll be a serviceable NHL’er but we didn’t trade a star.
Prucha’s worse..he’s 28 now (which in hockey terms means he’s likely peaked already) and he’ll score some goals, but he’s nothing great.
There are lists of players they shouldn’t have gotten rid of (how do you trade a 25 year old, point per game defenseman in Zubov?!?!) , but these two aren’t worth missing.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 25, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions
Fair enough...
…but don’t you think Dawes would be lighting it up on a team with more skill players? Prucha a fantastic 2-way guy if used in that role.
Still, however, you’re right. I just miss their hustle. :(
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
Nah. He’s on a team with Iginla, Jokinen, Bouwmeester, Bourque. He’s got plenty of talent on that Calgary team, he is what he is.
Higgins hustles :-)
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 26, 2010 2:34 PM EST up reply actions
Sorry
I like to bring that up though when people are ready to ship Dubinsky out of here b/c he’s “nothing more than a 3rd liner.”
Silly crazy people.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jan 25, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions
You are correct, Sir!
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
I would go for Kovalchuk
I wonder what it would take to get him AND sign him long term? If the cost is Staal and Dubinsky then I would do it.
Getting a lot of press all over
This thread is being discussed heavily at ’BlueshirtsUnited Forums
and so is the Kotalik story.
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