Would You Want Nathan Horton?
by Dave Shapiro on May 20, 2010 3:18 PM EDT
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PrintCurrent Florida Panthers, and former Chicago Blackhawks, GM Dave Tallon has made it well known that his Panthers are looking to restructure the current roster. It appears that very few players may be spared, and only defenseman Dmitry Kulikov has been noted as being "safe". One can assume that the newly re-signed David Booth will also be safe, as he has five more years on his deal. Tallon also inferred that Stephen Weiss won't be going anywhere, and that he is looking for a big center to play with Weiss.
What makes the above statement so interesting is that Nathan Horton, one of Florida's top players, is a big forward who should be capable of playing center with Weiss (Horton can play both RW and C, but struggles at the center position sometimes). With Tallon stating that he is looking for a big center, it could potentially mean that he will be looking to deal Horton. The soon-to-be 25 year old forward is coming off two straight seasons with nagging injuries where he did not crack the 70 game mark. Horton's best seasons came in 2006-2007 (31-31-62, +15) and 2007-2008 (27-35-62, +15), where he was primarily playing with Olli Jokinen. Once Jokinen was traded, Horton was supposed to fill that #1 center role, but struggled to do so.
Horton has three years left on his deal at a $4 million cap hit, so some cap maneuvering would need to happen for the Rangers to consider this deal. At just 25, Horton is still a few years shy of his prime, and in the right situation, could really start to produce top line worthy numbers. Horton has a great shot, and as a big power forward, would be a welcome addition to the Rangers, who are desperate for scoring. Should Horton become available, would you want the Rangers to kick the tires and see what it would take to pry him from Florida? What are you willing to give up for him? The price itself may be a little more than what most fans are willing to part with.
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Giving...
up assets for a guy who MIGHT get going is just not what the Rangers need to be involved in.
I would rather sign Plekanec than trade away kids for Horton.
However, I think the Rangers are better served improving physical play on the blue line and promoting young forwards.
I do expect Sather to spend money in the off-season, he always does.
They're different players,
Higgins has watched his shooting percentage plummet every year since he’s been in the league, and peaked at 52 points, staying mostly below 40.
Horton is a much better shooter, and a bigger player. As Dave eludes to, excluding his 19-yo season, Horton has posted at least 45 pts in every season, peaking at 62 when he played a full 82 games. He’d be a nice compliment to Gaborik, and could feast on 2nd line opposition.
His 2.58 pts/60 at 5v5 this past season was ahead of all of the following: Stamkos, Brad Richards, E. Staal, St. Louis, Zetterberg, Heatley, Kessel, Toews…….
The concern with Horton would be injuries, I wouldn’t call him injury prone, but so far quite injury unlucky, and combined with Gaborik (knock on wood), would leave us susceptible to lots of man games lost.
This name was brought up at the deadline, and I was on board with it at the time. Not much has changed in my mind, and I think if you can combine a deal like Callahan/Rozsival/Girardi to get Horton and a d-man, I think it improves the team.
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by George E. Ays on May 20, 2010 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Careful with adding Callahan, it’s blasphemy ’round these parts.
by Dave Shapiro on May 20, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m fully aware. It’s better than Dubinsky though. (ducking now)
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by George E. Ays on May 20, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Remember, MZA is going to anchor the first line, so both are expendable now.
by Dave Shapiro on May 20, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Err…what now?
Honestly, I don’t think either are “expendable,” but as you’ve said, they might be the cost of business if it means getting better somewhere.
I still think Dubi has a 70 point season in him in his life. Maybe not for 5 years, but I think the talent is there. I don’t know that Cally has the same ceiling, and since they’re roughly equivalent PK’ers (more blasphemy!), I’d rather shed RW for RW.
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by George E. Ays on May 20, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Sarcasm, was poking fun at the people that have MZA as a top line LW for next season.
by Dave Shapiro on May 20, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, ok.
I don’t think I saw any of that, I’ve mostly seen him on the reasonably acceptable 2nd line RW, or 3rd line behind Callahan.
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by George E. Ays on May 20, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Personally, I think he’s in Hartford for the start of the season.
by Dave Shapiro on May 20, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
WIth the lack of legitimate scorers on the team, I think he’ll get a really long look. If he’s in Hartford, he’ll be the last one sent, even after Grachev. That’s my feeling, but it’s early to tell I suppose.
I fear Tortorella with his handling, I will say that.
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by George E. Ays on May 20, 2010 4:24 PM EDT up reply actions
I would rather ride out the next season as is. If the current team can form chemistry then we have a core to move forward. If not its time for a firesale. Horton would be nice but Talon wont trade him and he wont take Redden or Rozsival which would be a must.
why is taking Redden or Rozy a must? And he might take Rozy anyway they have planty of cap space
by Ahmad Bradshaw on May 20, 2010 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Stick to football
Old, overpaid and overrated defenders aren’t used as bargaining chips. We’d have to shed salary to make it work, and $4 mil is too much for a guy who really puts up second line numbers in a division that is utterly shit defensively.
what about just including Girardi?
agree on division, but their are other ways to make the salary match. Giving Girardi and Voros for example can be shedding around 3m alone for next year. Obviously we are adding more, I am just saying getting rid or Redden or Rozy isnt a must for this deal
by Ahmad Bradshaw on May 20, 2010 5:33 PM EDT up reply actions
I was all for trading for Horton at the trade deadline but now that I look at it more I just want to stay away. Dubinsky would likely have to be in a deal with Horton and I would rather have Dubinsky as it seems he could have a big year next season. also we have way too many wingers and Horton has struggled at the center position which is what we would need him to play. I would rather just keep our current line up than trade for Horton.
id stick with what we have when it comes to forwards..
dubi cally gabby anisimov mza stepan grachev kreider avery christensen prust shelley could be a good set of forwards if u ask me
and when it comes to d..
staal girardi mdz mcdonagh potter sangs gilroy isnt bad either..
personally, id stick with the youth movement.. dump redden and let drury and rozis contracts run out..
in 2 years will have a team full of young kids with a lot of potential.. once those young kids start to develop i wouldnt mind bringing in a few free agents to push for a cup, but until than i wouldnt sign that much out of FA.. except maybe one strong defensive dman..
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
nino stepan gabby
kreider anisimov mza
grachev dubinsky callahan
avery christensen prust
staal mcdonagh
volchenkov mdz
girardi potter/sangs/gilroy
if it were up to me.. thats what id like to see in 2 years..
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
Christensen is only as good as his wingers, and he’s definitely not defensively sound enough to be a 4th liner.
Drury is still here in 2 years.
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by George E. Ays on May 20, 2010 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
Niederreiter Stepan Gaborik
Grachev Anisimov MZA
Dubinsky Drury Callahan
Avery Kreider Prust
More feasible? I always like the thought of the All-American 3rd line. I think they’d be very effective defensively and have good scoring potential for a third line.
Dave, would love your thoughts on what it would take
would Anisimov and Girardi for Horton and a defensemen potentially work?
putting in the Girardi part as with Horton’s salary we would prob couldnt resign him.
Personally Id much rather trade Anisimov then Dubi, Cally, and MDZ.
I would avoid giving up Anisimov, he’s legit. I would throw in Dubi or Cally before AA. I would say Dubi+prospect (Grachev?)+pick.
by Dave Shapiro on May 21, 2010 3:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Blech to that
Dubinsky could be just as good, and Grachev as well. I understand the idea of giving up what could be for what is, but I wouldn’t give up two of what could be to get one of it.
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by George E. Ays on May 21, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions
Unfortunately that may be what it takes to keep Tallon on the phone. Maybe substitute Girardi or Gilroy for Grachev…maybe.
by Dave Shapiro on May 21, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, I mean if that’s the price, then you pass, imo.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on May 21, 2010 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions
Pass
on horton… for some reason i just don’t like to grab those guys out of the South East Division… moving from that division hasn’t boded well for a few others who departed recently, Jokinen/ bouwmeester
Let me just say that we have a golden opportunity to make a solid deal, as we have a large number of prospects, some well-hyped and others who have gained hyped from strong play this year.
Would Horton fall in the category of a “good deal?” Truth be told, we do not know the guy’s upside, as he’s only momentarily had a good supporting cast. And really, I seriously question whether you could consider Jokinen a good “supporting cast.” That being said, he’s a solid player who still has many years left and could thrive in a new uniform. MDZ and Anisimov, a pick too, if needed.
Congrats on jumping on the Banter Crew, Dave!
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by Bettman's Nightmare on May 20, 2010 8:38 PM EDT reply actions
are you saying MDZ, AA, and a pick for Horton?…not to be mean but are you serious?…MDZ and AA have the potential to be great in this league and you wanna trade them for a player (yes, good player) but a player who has questionable work ethic…i wouldn’t do this deal..maybe switch mdz with gilroy or sangs and a pick but i don’t think they’ll do it…i think the asking price maybe too high for horton
yea i was +1ing the rest of the post, didnt really notice that last part
but no, keep MDZ, but i would do anisimov + for Horton
by Ahmad Bradshaw on May 20, 2010 10:40 PM EDT up reply actions
Do not give up our prospects
Thats how winning teams are built. By developing your young players and sticking with them. Look at the stanley cup champs recently: Pitt, Det, Ducks, Carolina, Tampa, etc….they all built from within the organization.
Lundqvist-Staal-MDZ-McDonagh-Krieder-Stepan-MZA-Cally-Dubi-Gabby-AA-Grachev-Prust
The core of the 2014 Stanley Cup winners!
by 76 Blueshirt on May 21, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
How bout Detroit. How bout Carolina. How bout Anahiem. You don’t have to tank to develop good young players. We have the players in our organization right now to put together a good team. No need to tank at all. From what i’m reading Krieder will be a superstar. Stepan will be a top 6 forward, MZA is highly regarded and much sought after prospect. Add these guys to our young core we already have and hopefully we’ll be contending in 3-4 years.
Lundqvist-Staal-MDZ-McDonagh-Krieder-Stepan-MZA-Cally-Dubi-Gabby-AA-Grachev-Prust
The core of the 2014 Stanley Cup winners!
by 76 Blueshirt on May 21, 2010 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Not to kidd a dead horse here
but MDZ isn’t going anywhere. For a 19 year old he showed more poise than most of the blue line.
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by Joe Fortunato on May 21, 2010 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t really recall seeing MDZ in many crucial big game situations, so i’m not sure about his poise levels. And Redden has a remarkable amount of poise: he plays like shit for most of the game, then, when the game is on the line, he keeps his cool and plays like shit some more. It takes (I love puns) a shit-load of poise to maintain his level of play no matter the situation.
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by Scratch and Snif on May 21, 2010 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Sorry.....
But i wouldn’t trade either Arty or MDZ for Horton. I don’t believe he is worth it and MDZ is still very young i say by the age of at least 22 he’ll be one of our best defense men with better offensive abilities than any of the ones we have now. It doesn’t hurt us in any way to keep an offensive defense men in our ranks.
As far as Arty goes, he is also still young, and if given time could fill into his body well. He’ll end up being a solid power forward at center for a very good 2nd line.
I could get more love from a Cactus then you..........
agree def dont trade MDZ
even though i think horton def has more upside than Arty
by Ahmad Bradshaw on May 20, 2010 10:38 PM EDT up reply actions
no thanks
if he were consistently healthy, I might think about it some more.
"Fantasy, reality, science Fiction. Which is which? Who can tell?"
Horton
Let me preface this by saying I think the team needs to rebuild, and it should be on a 3 year plan (when we fianlly shed all of the bad salaries). I dont believe we should be looking at what we need to become instant contenders for the THIS upcoming season, because it would be a big mistake. Until we can shed redden AND drury, we are sunk as far as being any sort of contender.
Back to Horton- I have always liked Horton. If he can get past the injuries, I think he’d be a really good fit for the team. I’d like to see a 2nd line of Horton, Duby, and Callahan with either cally or horton switching to LW. That line can physically pound the heck out of the opponents, and I see 25 goals and 60 points each as a reasonable expectation. Horton doesnt fix the team for the 2011 season, or address the #1 center issue which is fine with me. He is only 25, and is a long term piece of the puzzle. I believe Horton, Duby and Cally could be a very good 2nd line for the long term.
Yes, gabby still needs a # 1 center. Yes, the defense is soft and we need to add more toughness. Yes, the team is still without a true leader. All issues that still need to be addressed over the next few years.
I think that if the price is right (maybe they take rozy + picks/youth(Gilroy?) or something like that) then they should do the deal.
If you're gonna get Horton
you’ll need to take McCabe, too. Simply put, a young player who hasn’t completely maxed out his potential like Horton, will require us taking the contract of Brian McCabe. I’d have no problem with this if BOTH the R&R Brothers were going in the deal. But, since we know they’re not…the asking price might be a little too high to broker a deal, IMO.
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anyone looking to dump MDZ
is clueless. He’s a 19 year old with amazing offensive game, and developing defensive skills. You don’t trade kids like that.
Everyone is also overlooking that $4 mil is way too much for a guy who is injury prone and is really a 50-60pt guy if he makes it the whole season. Dubi is near that mark already and makes half that (for now). Any package with Dubi is retarded, as is with Cally (despite being massively overrated by this fanbase, he is still very valuable to us)
the best asset to trade would have been girardi and a kid (Sangs or someone who isn’t on good terms with management). But Gman is an RFA and lost his value unless it’s a sign and trade.
And everyone is way too high on AA. He’s going to get his head taken off one day, and has that wonderful Malkin/Semin trait of doing the same stupid ass move every time, despite it not working (he loves to drag shoot at horrible times)
No one is "way to high" on AA
the kid is developing well and might be a solid second line center in a few years. he has talent, was utilized horribly this year, and still did well.
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by Joe Fortunato on May 21, 2010 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
and has that wonderful Malkin/Semin trait of doing the same stupid ass move every time
Not for nothing, but if AA scores at the rate of Malkin/Semin, I think we’d all be quite happy.
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by George E. Ays on May 21, 2010 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions
no doubt
I just see more of those two star’s negative qualities in him than the positives. Basically, the slightest amount of adversity and they have no idea how adjust. Both are terrible at that. So is OV. Shit, pretty much the entire Russian team showed that in Feb.
He’s definitely still young, and i’m not saying to trade him at all. I’m just tempering expectations here. He’s not particularly fast, and really does not understand keeping his head up and seeing the whole ice. The way he plays, he cuts the rink in half.
And I don’t know if I’d say he was utilized horribly. He didn’t do anything to make you think he merited more than third line minutes on a good night. Dubi/Christennsenn/Prospal/Joker all rotated in and out as our top two centermen. I wouldn’t wanna take time away from them for AA. Drury’s much better on faceoffs and defensively. I’m sure playing at an NHL level helped more than it hurt, but it’s not like there was much room for him here at the time.
i agree with most things u said
but i completely disagree on artie
he put up 28 points playing 3rd/4th line mins in a rookie season.
im willing to bet that if hes used properly on a second line with dubi and cally hell put up 50 points
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
Horts was moved to center simply to cover the void Olli left for 208-09. It was an experiment – out of necessity – on the part of Pete DeBoer since the Cats were so thin at the position.
Once he was moved back to wing for 09-10 his numbers improved dramatically until the Seidenberg-caused injury. And he would have done far better had linemate Booth not been shelved.
yeah I have to say that if the price is right
and it can be exensive since he is so young and talented, I want to go for him. I’ve always liked him
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by Joe Fortunato on May 21, 2010 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions
As a Panthers expert, what do you think it would take to pry Horton, considering Tallon’s statement that he’s going to gut the team.
by Dave Shapiro on May 21, 2010 12:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Need to clarify what Tallon said; in essence he mentioned only a few names favorably, of which Horton’s was one (along with Booth, Weiss, Garrison, and Kulikov). Doesn’t mean they’re all off-limits in any fashion, only that he went out of his way – twice if I recall correctly – to assure whomever was listening that his eyes are on these guys.
That said, of the names mentioned above I believe Horts would be the first to go. Beyond Booth (who’s about as iron-clad safe as anyone on the roster) Nathan would command the highest price. He’s so close to breaking out offensively that a change of scenery is probably just what he and the Panthers may require. Some would say he’s still suffering Jokin-itis, which may be a factor in any decision to move him.
by Donny Rivette on May 22, 2010 6:47 PM EDT up reply actions
I would take Horton. I have always liked him as a player and when he is at the top of his game, he can easily hit the 30 goal mark in a season. He’s only going to be 25, so age is not a problem, but what I am worried about is injuries. Like you said, Dave, he has not been able to play 70 games for the past two years.
Anyway, nice write-up!
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by Nick Montemagno on May 21, 2010 3:27 PM EDT reply actions
N O
It drives me crazy when people say ohh id like to give cally and a prospect for horton who is overrated..let me correct myself wayyyy overrated. What gets me even more is that someone uh hmm(dave) would rathet give up dubinsky or cally than AA? Why? why not keep the young guys we have and at best keep the better players. If im wrong someone argue please.
by louielounz1 on May 21, 2010 9:55 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
Ok...I'll argue.
The reason you give up Callahan or Dubinsky first is because they’re similar in age to Horton, and Horton is the more talented offensive player that either (though Dubi is at least close)
Also, you don’t give up on 22 yr old centers just because you didn’t like their rookie seasons, or saw something that you personally didn’t like about his game. He still scored more goals per 5v5 time than everyone on the team except Gaborik and Drury, and more points/60 than everyone but the 1st liners.
He’s got a chance to be a real force. Now is it a guarantee? Certainly not…but it’s wayyy too early to give up on him, and definitely not for a player like Horton.
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by George E. Ays on May 22, 2010 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
3 more years at 4 million a bit too much
Obviously, he’s more gifted than Cally and Duby when looking at the numbers, I wont include heart, health, hits etc. But when looking at the salary, it makes more sense to keep either player that is making roughly 2 million right now and in their own right are growing. AA is going to get better, hopefully, I want to keep him too, don’t get me wrong. Let me just lay down my order of importance for a second. Callahan, Dubinksy———Anisimov aka Prucha aka Dawes. Yeah, he could be good even great but he has shown us signs of greatness with signs of Lisin-ness as well. Lazy, keeps his head down, shines on a 4th line …strange. Look for the heart of a player like Duby, Cally and Staal and tell me that’s something you would want to lose. Not me. Lets keep the guys we got sign some ufa’s and move on to the next season.
Heart
The one thing about Duby, Cally, and Staal is they play hard every night…. We just have to accept that they wont be superstars, but I wouldnt trade them in a deal for Horton ( the player we trade them for would have to be better). The reason is that they are home grown talent, something this team has rarely had. I think Duby and Cally have been used incorrectly by both renney and torts so far in their careers, and it has stalled their growth offensively. Also, they play similar styles to horton, so why trade one for the other. He is further along in his progress, and without the injuries, is the type of player we want duby and cally to become. He is still young, the consistency will come, but he has already provven what he can do. I say trade some young defensemen, we have too many and there isnt enough room.
No way you give up Cally for Horton. I don’t care if he is more talented offensively and scores 10 more goals per season than Cally. Can he do all the things Cally does? Is he a terrific PKer? Does he throw his body around with reckless abandon? Does he block shots with the best of them in this league? Does he hustle his ass of every shift?
I haven’t watched Horton much but i’d have to say no. No way he does the things cally does. If he did then why would Florida get rid of him?
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If you were gonna give up Cally, you need a centerman. They would have to get Weiss! Cally and Rosi for McCabe and Weiss.
Sold.
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by George E. Ays on May 23, 2010 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
yeah
then we could trade Henrik for Vokoun and Gabby for Booth and Olesz and Heck while we’re at it lets trade logo’s and finish 13th every year while most of our players recover while on the injured reserved list.
by louielounz1 on May 23, 2010 10:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Stephen Weiss has improved every year he’s been in the league, and has done so despite getting the toughest minutes every year.
Here, read through this:
http://www.coppernblue.com/2010/2/13/1307280/trade-target-stephen-weiss-c-fla
Trading for a quality player is not the same as being ridiculous and trading our roster for theirs. Weiss is a better player than Callahan, McCabe is better than Rozsival. It’s really a simple deal to say yes to.
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by George E. Ays on May 23, 2010 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions
vomiting in my mouth…stop. Please, I’m begging you.
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that's for louielounz1 to be clear.
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