Rangers Analysis: Boogaard Signing A Ludicrous Mistake
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 6:00 AM EDT
in Rangers Analysis
347 comments
When the July 1st free agency door opened many Ranger fans sat by their computers holding their breath. Not because they were waiting for a big name player to land on Broadway, but because they were waiting praying that their general manager didn’t screw up.
Enter Derek Boogaard, well actually, enter Glen Sather. Reports originated out of twitter that Boogaard’s agent was floating around a 4 year 1.65 million dollar a year contract that his client was offered. In the open thread we prayed that it wasn’t the Rangers; we prayed that Sather would have learned from his mistake with Donald Brashear. But most importantly we prayed that Sather would not, once again, snub his own team in favor of a glorified position that John Tortorella underutilizes anyway.
Once again Ranger fans were torched. While Sather continues to snub Marc Staal—refusing to budge from his original 4 year 14 million dollar contract—he goes and throws a 4 year 6.6 million dollar contract at a man who hasn’t scored a goal in 222 NHL games. This coming right after Erik Christensenhad to refuse a lowball contract from Sather, and hit the open market before Sather agreed to give him a two year 1.95 million dollar contract. So the logic is that Christensen, who will probably play on the top line with Marian Gaborik, basically makes the same amount of money in two years that Boogaard does in one. How do you think Christensen feels right now?
It gets worse after the jump …
For a Rangers team that is looking for every possible way to save money, to get farther away from the cap ceiling; this move makes no sense. Jody Shelly was on the table at 3 years 1.1 million dollars per year, but apparently that was too expensive for Glen Sather. Last year Brandon Dubinsky wanted 1.85 million dollars a year, and had to hold out all through training camp (which brought bad blood between the two) in order to get it. And while Dubinsky was getting no attention from Slats, he kicked Blair Betts so far onto the curb that he found his way to Philadelphia and then signed Brashear to a two year contract. Brashear was, of course, an utter failure, and was removed before the end of the season, and subsequently waived again two days ago.
But I digress, back to the disaster sitting right in front of us. Boogaard, while bringing toughness and a nasty streak to a team that is surrounded by hard hitting and big division rivals came at the wrong price. Yes, he and Brandon Prust will be able to deal with the Jody Shelly’s (who is now on Philadelphia), the Matt Cooke’s and the other flies that annoy Marian Gaborik (who he is apparently good friend with). He is a top enforcer in the league, and he can certainly throw down with the best of them, but at what cost?
He brings one thing and one thing only to the table, a "punch people in the face first, ask questions later" attitude. An attitude that the Rangers do need, but also had in Jody Shelly; and had at a much cheaper and shorter contract. The ideology that Boogaard should be paid anything near 1.65 million dollars for four years is ludicrous, and here is why.
For starters Boogaard is not a hockey player. Fans who curse the name of Aaron Voros because he: "skates like he has weights in his skates and shoots like he has cement in his gloves," should be aware that Boogaard (in terms of hockey skill) makes Voros look like Mario Lemieux.
Secondly, Tortorella doesn’t play the fourth line, and when he does they average 5 minutes a night. So while Sather low balled Staal, Dubinsky and Christensen—guys who play over or close to 15-20+ minutes a night—he goes out and throws all the cash he can muster at a guy who will play 5 minutes a night. Reports are that Edmonton was in on the Boogaard sweepstakes until "the money got silly." I’m not making that up, that’s what Edmonton team officials actually said.
For those of you that think that Boogaard is going to make a difference because he is going to be able to take the body and through his weight around for the Rangers now, please consider this. Tortorella has no patience for stupid penalties. Voros saw the bench most of the time he was playing for taking dumb penalties. So I say by game 3—if he lasts that long—Boogaardtakes a cheap shot and is no longer in Tortorella’s favor, and thus never plays. And even if Boogaard prove himself to be useful, he will play 6-7 minutes a night, worth 1.65 million a year for the next 4 years? I didn't think so.
And the highest reason, and the last one I will address here, that this signing is a problem is that it sets a dangerous precedent for the Rangers from here on out. Why would Vinny Prospal sign for anything less than 3 million dollars if Sather is shelling out 1.65 million dollars to thugs who have no hockey sense? Why should Marc Staal ask for anything less than 5 million dollars, if Boogaard gets to make 1.65 million dollars? And next year when both Ryan Callahan and Dubinsky are free agents, why should they expect anything less than to be thoroughly overpaid since Boogaard gets to be?
So when Sather tells Callahan and Dubinsky--and maybe even Staal and Dan Girardi this year--that they are asking for too much money, they will point to the Boogaard deal. And when Sather says "that's a completely different situation," I won't blame our free agents for walking out the door.
So here we are one year after the Brashear debacle and here we are again, sitting at our computers, ripping our hair out of our head, reading scathing articles about Sather’s consistent failures and hearing laughter from every other sports fan on the planet. Every time you think Sather has done his wost, he hits another "home run." Well let's just call this signing a "grand slam."
Here are some things you all might be interested in seeing:
Nathan Eide of Hockey Wilderness sent this out to the SBNation Hockey group:
Metrics on Boogaard's deal
He had 350 1/2 minutes of TOI last season. At his new rate, that is $4707 per minute.
Compare that to:
Zidlicky: $2122 / minute
Koivu: $1958 / minute
Alexander Ovechkin: $4991
And something from Scotty Hockey:
It would be alright that Boogaard hasn't scored a goal in four years if he was a big fighter but he had just nine fight majors last season - not enough to rank in the top 40 tough guys in the league. Sure he went 8-1-1 according to Hockey Fights but who cares? The guy plays three out of every four games, skates just over six minutes per game and adds nothing offensively. Sounds just about right for someone getting a four-year contract worth $1.65 million per. Right?
The only comfort is that it’s not surprising; it’s just another typical July 1st in Rangers land.
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No words for this...
Just disgust. From one of my favorite blogs, Hockey or Die:
“What could possibly (dementia) have convinced Sather that the same problems his club faced with Donald Brashear wouldn’t resurface with Derek Boogaard?”
Only few NHL GM’s feel the need to fill the large enforcer role nowadays with guys who cannot contribute whatsoever on offense in the new NHL. The need for these guys are dwindling as there could be a young kid in the “Boogers” spot next season for a much less price.
I expect a buyout after a year and a half.
Blueshirt Banter - End the Sather Era
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Red Sox Fan behind Enemy lines.
by Rob Luker on Jul 2, 2010 7:01 AM EDT reply actions 1 recs
I agree completely. The pure enforcer that brings NOTHING ELSE is a ghost of NHL PAST. Idiocy. Just what we need. Some other overly aggressive, one dimensional, penalty prone idiot. The only upside is that’s we only have to endure it maybe 3 – 4 minutes a game for 55 games a season-that is, if we’re talking about the regular season, because if this team makes the playoffs (insert laughter) the guy is USELESS, as is any pure enforcer these days. Slats signs these knuckle draggers because he lives in the dark ages. Snow in Hank’s face. Give me a break.
And, Joe, you are correct. The worst part is how it affects future signing negotiations. It sets a bargaining precedent that would make any agent lick their chops.
Just some input from the NW division, from someone that has seen this guy play the Canucks 6 times a year for his entire career.
He is painfully slow. He has a propensity for taking the bad penalty…though …to be fair, sometimes that’s just because he is just so darn big. But in our division, most teams just skate around him and keep their heads on a swivel for the off chance he gets close.
The intimidation factor is also real. In the right situations, his menace will add that aspect to the game.
The last game of that epic 14 game last year was the Wild for the Canucks. It was an afteroon game to boot…so you knew it was going to be tough to get any points out of this one. The Canucks got thrashed.
But, in that…in a game where the Wild were beating a divisional rival that for…that game at least…had one foot on the plane already…and he still could not score.
He got about 3 chances to…but just kept fluffing and missing them. The last one, he tried to push puck and goalie ( Hulk Smash!!) into the net. He gets mad on the ice just like the ol’ green skinned would!
You almost felt bad for him. Then you remember that he gets to play in the NHL and make big money, and you change your mind.
To see the deal he got from Slats was surprising to say the least. To see the term was shocking.
Is it really that kind of hockey in the NE division? I mean, I have seen enough games to know they are hard hitting and all ( and here’s the last bad nugget, I promise…and its not all bad. He can hurt people when he hits them. But he has to sneak up on them because of his slothful skating speed. )..but unless Torts can work him hard and turn him into the Ranger’s version of Buf for the Hawks on the PP…I don’t get it.
LOL
It is kinda funny. He usually goes to the corner where two guys are fighting for the puck and “adds his enthusiasm”. The fact that that usually includes an elbow or a knee usually means the refs watch him pretty closely.
Our colour guy here for most games, ex Hartford goalie John “Cheech” Garrett, has gotten very good at predicting the call.
Watching him lumber around after the play, and then finally tag some poor sucker. He’ll hurt you though.
Which will get you 1.65 for 4 these days, I guess…
;-)
Hope this isn't too soon...
Most Flyers fans reacted with a massive ‘WTF’ to the Shelley deal, but you guys seem to regard it as fair. Is it fair in comparison to the Boogaard deal or is it fair as a stand-alone deal? Is there something about Shelley that we are overlooking or don’t know?
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 2, 2010 8:00 AM EDT reply actions
It’s definitely fair compared to the Boogaard deal, but he may still be overpaid by a couple hundred thousand. Could be much worse. The scariest thing is that it takes him til he’s 37, which, who knows if he’ll last that long. But that won’t count as 35+ contract, I believe, so it won’t hamper you guys too much.
Shelley is a class act. He’s great in the locker room, and clearly, he’s tough. He didn’t take unnecessary penalties for us, and only fought when he HAD to. Also, he actually contributed offensively a bit down the stretch, so he can actually play the game.
It doesn’t seem like you guys need him though, but I’m not sure what your plans are for guys like Carcillo, Hartnell, Asham, etc… You’ve got enough toughness already so it seemed a little silly. On top of that, you’ve stacked your D – so it’s a tad confusing as to why you’d go after Shelley.
Thanks for that
Asham isn’t going to be re-signed. It’s unlikely that Carcillo will either, despite him being a big penalty drawer (more than Shelley from the stats I’ve seen). But we’ll see what happens there. The Flyers are right up against the cap though so I don’t see too much more happening.
Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger; Briere, Betts and Pronger;
Our team is so much stronger
We've got Briere, Betts and Pronger...
by PursuitOfLappyness on Jul 2, 2010 8:19 AM EDT up reply actions
just courios....
drury doesn’t seem very verbal so who will get in a teamates face if they are out of line or if like say avery is being a distraction or acting like a douche who will stop that from hurting the team. does anyone have an inside track to this sort of info i only know what i see or watch on tv do we have a verbal guy that will hold players accountable?
Why
Does everyone cry about this signing?
Boogard is a huge animal, and much younger than Shelley, the contract is a bit high sure, bit the Rangers control a younger, better defensive forward for a long time at a “reasonable” salary.
In 2 or 3 years, enforcers may be making 2 million a year, or more.
I believe that they are becoming a rare commodity, and I am fine with it. The Rangers addressed two big needs, a VIABLE backup goaltender and an enforcer.
The Rangers scouts and coaches must truly believe in the young guys. I am convinced that the Rangers will be better this season and I would hope that Ranger fans would be more supportive of the team and stop bashing every single move.
It is becoming a bit tiresome.
the problem isnt the signing of an enforcer
My story highlights the fact that you can’t snub your own RFA’s in favor of a player that will play 5 minutes a gane.
Trust me that you’ll be bitching when Dubinsky and Callahan demand bigger contracts because of Boogaard’s and they don’t get them.
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 8:23 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
and not just you
We’ll all be bitching
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 8:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Joe
I appreciate the enthusiasm from many contributors here, but the fact remains that we have little idea about what is really going on between Staal and the Rangers.
I seriously doubt the word snub is accurate as I know for a fact that Sather and co. have been trying to get Staal re-signed for weeks.
The fact remains that Staal is a restricted free agent, and is UNLIKELY to go anywhere. A deal will get done, but Slats is not going to sign him to some ridiculous contract.
I don’t agree with the argument that player X scores Y amount of points and gets Z salary, Boogard is a specialist type player, and enforcers who make opponents pay a price have value.
I would have loved to have seen Malhotra signed, or perhaps a more offensive center, but it’s just not in the cards right now.
It is a snub
Dubinsky had to hold out all of training camp to get a contract just 200K above Boogaard.
Dan Girardi hasn’t even been called yet.
Marc Staal said no to Sather’s offer and now who knows what will come of it.
And Christensen had to hit the open market before Sather would give in.
And even though Sather probably will re-sign all of the RFA’s there is no need to create that kind of bad blood. It’s not even bad business it’s just stupid business.
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Dubinsky
In other words, Sather drove a real hard bargain and got his way. That’s a good thing. Dubinsky is just now starting to come into his own and if he does then he’ll earn that much larger salary. We may like him, but he hasn’t proven himself yet. Sather did the right thing holding out.
Boogard is only 28 and will be a bargain after next year when they raise the cap and other guys leap frog him in. By then, we’ll have McIIrath up and running.
In the meantime, Gabby demands a lot of room to be effective. If we want him to score 40 goals or more, he can’t have guys all over him. People must pay a price for picking on him and whoever else it is that Sather ends up picking up as our second line threat. He isn’t done.
Shelly is a great guy but he over-achieved in New York which is why he was let go in the first place. It was a choice between him, Prust or Avery. All very similar. Sather chose Prust and Avery. It was the right call.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J-ftoiL7N0&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSX35a-sPh4
Notice who Boogaard takes on. Other enforcers.
Unlike a lot of New York Ranger fans, who are already talking about finishing low next year for a high draft pick…you guys are amazing…Sather knows that this team came close to knocking off Philly and had a chance to make a run in the playoffs last year. He’s determined to plug the holes — goal tending and enforcing — because whether or not we win the cup next year we’re going to be moving up young talent who also need protection.
Also, Boogaard might not score but he does alright in the plus/minus category which tells us he’s responsible defensively.
Wise move for the Rangers.
d
yea, that first one will do wonders for team chemistry – dirty hits often do. he’s really not responsible defensively… at all. Derek at Blue and Copper did a piece about how worthless he is (thank Rangersmurf for the link)
http://www.coppernblue.com/2010/3/5/1358506/derek-boogaards-value
Heres my problem with that Peterman
Yes, enforcers are rare and have value but at such a high rate is absurd. Sather choked bad on this one. Now watch what happens this upcoming year.
1. Torts puts his players through rigorous training.
2. Boogaard cannot keep up and gets the third degree from Torts.
3. He then starts to complain like a whiney girl and gets scratched for a couple of games.
4. He comes back and takes a really stupid penalty, and i’m not talking about the one Dubinsky got sat for last year. I am talking Laraque status.
5. He doesn’t play again because of it.
Do you see where i’m going with this.
Brashear had crazy value last year for us.
Would would we have done without him enforcing?
"Relax, all right? Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring; besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls. It's more democratic."
- CRASH DAVIS
Dont think that is how it works
Im pretty sure they understand the concept of market value and an agent would have to be a huge moron to use a goalie salary as a comp to a grinding forward. Same with an enforcer, they have a role and that role has a market value. If enforcers were not so important then we should see a decline in what people would pay. But that doesnt seem the case, I think there are less people to fill the roll so now you pay bigger bucks if you want the cream of the crop. And I dont disagree with that, if you feel your team needs it (and 99% of us felt we needed it last year) then dont fart around and get a bottom tier enforcer.
And when Dubi starts dropping the gloves and putting in more goals he can ask for money. In my mine he is getting paid on par to what he brings to the table.
by Blueshirt in Paris on Jul 2, 2010 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions
1.65 million dollars is not market value for Boogaard
and Dubinsky, who will score 50+ more points than Boogaard this year, can point at Boogaards salary and day “I want double that” and who will blame him?
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 9:34 AM EDT up reply actions
I will blame him
Your salary isn’t based of other people on the team as much as it is based on comparisons. Bring up Boogaards name in an arbitration hearing and they will laugh you out of the room.
And one can argue that Boogaard went to the open market as a free agent and came back with that salary….so that IS his market value.
I do agree that we had to pay a premium to get this done but looking at the market I would say its a 300k-400k premium…lets not get our panties in a wad over that. There are many other things to worry about.
by Blueshirt in Paris on Jul 2, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
It sends a message to your RFA's that you don't care about them
Dubinsky had to hold out all through training camp in order to get his contract. He is 400 times the hockey player (and the usefulness) that Boogaard is.
And how is it crazy for Dubinsky to tell Sather “I don’t want 1.850 million, because I deserve more than 200K than Boogaard.” This has nothing to do with arbitration, this has everything to do with Sather and free agent relations.
And why wouldn’t it piss off Staal and Girardi that they aren’t signed yet, but Sather deemed that it was a priority to overpay for Boogaard. It’s bad business. Period.
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Well you cant always make everyone happy
but in simple terms it is due to the CBA… the clock ticks faster on FA then restricted ones, so if Sather was spending these past few days trying to get restricted signed and came back to the free agent market a week after it opened I would say he was a poor judge of priorities.
But DUBI is a RESTICTED FREE AGENT, Boogard was not…HUGE difference.
Dubi can say what he wants, thought I would think he had a better argument using Redden or Drury but whatever…None of those names mentioned would even be brought up in an arbitration conversation.
It is not a level playing field with absolutes…there are many things that need to put in context.
by Blueshirt in Paris on Jul 2, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
I understand that Dubi is an RFA
so yes, Sather can take his time with them. But why do it? They are your own home grown talent. Why piss them off? Why treat them like shit?
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
Agree
Sather could do a better job at that..;but then he would not be Sather.
by Blueshirt in Paris on Jul 2, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Have you been watching games?
Dubi DOES drop the gloves. And he scored 20 goals last year. And he’s one of our top penalty killers. Are you REALLY arguing that on some plane of existence, Boogaard is actually worth MORE than Dubi?
by Lunkwill Fook on Jul 2, 2010 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions
Have you?
Are you saying that Dubi is in the same league as Boogaard in fighting? Didnt think so…Boogaard has a different role and gets paid according to that role. Worth really has nothing to do with this. Because you have restricted free agents, free agents, salary cap…there are more things in play then actual worth.
I still argue that Dubi as a restricted FA with the number he has put up has a pretty fair salary.
by Blueshirt in Paris on Jul 2, 2010 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions
So because Boogaard is a better fighter, we can disregard that Dubinsky will fight? The team needs hockey players that will stand up for themselves and teammates. Boogaard is close, he just needs to become a hockey player.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 10:08 AM EDT up reply actions
So you're saying that Boogaard gets paid 1.65 million to:
Play 5 minutes a night.
Get scratched in at least 30 games.
Get into 9 fights (7 more than Dubinsky mind you)
Score 0 goals and even more so make no defensive or offensive controbutions on the ice.
And he was paid market value?
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Ill use a silly analogy
You work for a big company…ACB Inc. They have about 30 offices around north America. You work in the NYC office and your position is called pickle picker. you get paid $50k per year. Now there is another position titled tomato smasher. It is a different position but one could easy argue that the pickle pickers mean more to the company and the bottom line then the tomato smashers. But the rub is the tomato smasher in your office gets paid almost the same as you do. plus you have to work lots of OT and he doesn’t really even work that much. it is worth noting that Mr tomato smasher has been working in this industry quite a few years more then you
so you go to your boss to complain and demand a raise. What would you expect the boss to say? Mr tomato smasher has been working longer then you…if you want, apply for the tomato smasher position…oh you are not qualified for that position yet you want to compare your salary to his? Now you march out pissed, but hopefully you catch on to reality…put your head down, work hard and in a few years you will make much more the mr tomatoe as the upside of a pickle picker is much higher. Or you can go back to your cubicle and keep bitching. If you choose the latter it might best you go look for a position in another office where there are no high paid tomatoe smashers…but you will soon see that there is always someone that makes more money then you. My advise, stop worry about others and conentrate on yourself.
Dubi has a lot of things to work on, worry about getting paid more or how much Boogaards getting paid should not be his priority now
Moral of the story….compare apples to apples…not pickles to tomatoes
by Blueshirt in Paris on Jul 2, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions
No I hear you
But it brings up bad blood between the pickler and the tomato smasher … erm Dubinsky and Sather. Thats my problem with it
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Incidentally…I agree that Dubi at 1.85 was a fair deal when he signed it. However, when he signs next year, he’s going to be worth around 150-200% of that number.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions
thats the point of my article
what was once fair (and Dubinky Cally and Staa’s offer all were) is now no longer the case.
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions
Ah - the enthusiam
and misguided expectations……
Not picking on you Joe – but who the hell ever told you that this stuff had to be “fair” ?? Or that life needs to be “fair” ??
They lied. Plain and simple.
As for “ludicrous” – this contract doesn’t even show up on the ludicrous radar.
Ludicrous is Gomez
More, or equally ludicrous is Drury (even if he does all the little things)
Outrageously – nay – absurdly ludicrous is Redden.
I’ll give you that I think this is overpaying by a couple hundred $K – but if they’d lost out on him to the Islanders over $200k or $300k – how would you feel then? No Shelley – effectively no enforcer – all the decent ones off the market at any price – and the guy you probably wanted headed to the Island (along with, in years to come, Nino)……
I don’t see how you can project to what will happen after next season with Callahan and Dubinsky when we don’t even have a roster for this season.
What happens if Redden does get demoted? Or if that happens plus a trade occurs for Roszival?? Projecting next year’s cap issues is an exercise in futility – until the end of next season.
Cheers!
THe contact isn't ludicrous because of the numbers
yeah he is overpaid (by a lot) but in the grand picture 2 million is pretty irrelevent.
My problem is that this contract continues to prove that Sather mistreats his RFA’s. Dubinsky Staal, Girardi are core members of this team. Yet Sather felt the need to go out and overspend to get Boogaard.
It’s luducrous because it sends a message to core players that Sather doesn’t deem them important enough. Boogaard won’t play in more than 55 games this year. And in thoes games he does plan in he wont play more than 5 minutes.
And for the point that if he goes to the Islanders? So what? We have Prust, and regardless he brings nothing more than punching to the team.
It was just a waste signing, and the numbers weren’t a big deal, but the principal behind them was
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
You’re projecting your feelings about ‘caring for core players’ and what you believe is “a message” being sent to them.
The reality – which even you admit from time to time – is that this is a business. I care for you today until someone better becomes available at a price I’m willing to pay – or until someone just as good as you becomes available for less.
I’ll never forgive Rangers’ Management for what they did with Ridley and Miller, for example. But I got over it in due time. To tie this signing into a disdain for other players who’s contracts come up after this season is, as I see it, completely irrelevant at this time. It may become relevant in 12 months – but I suspect it won’t even be mentioned then.
TIme will tell
Of course hockey is a business
If i ever get away from that smack he in the head, lol.
But it’s BAD business to piss off your RFA’s. And it sends poor messages to player like McDonagh and other UFA’s thinking about coming into the system.
And time will tell but I did want to make people aware that this might be an issue for a long future.
Regardless, like I said, the contract itself isnt a big deal. He can always be sent to the minors. It’s just the principal
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
And it sends poor messages to player like McDonagh and other UFA’s thinking about coming into the system.
I won’t comment on McDonagh – because frankly I believe the whole situation with him has been blown out of proportion.
As for UFAs – I can’t recall the last time I heard anyone say
“I could have gone to “New York” – but I don’t like the way they treat their people so I came here". The reality – because it’s an original six team, because it’s in New York City, because of the way they coddle the players (private jet not commercial planes, limos to local games, etc – even if Torts is trying to change that) and the world class training center in Westchester – the reality is that people DO want to come here. And like Gaborik and others – they end up here.
In the end – it “may” be an issue. As you can tell, I’m extremely skeptical.
but most of these players want to come when they are in the twilight of the their careers… when they’re happy that some team, not only will take a chance on them, but will actually overpay them.
For players anywhere near their prime, like Gomez and Drury, they want to come because their being grossly overpaid.
In Gabby’s case, no other teams wanted to give him the same terms because of his injury history, so the Rangers were his best option.
Basically, in order to grab the better free agents, we’ll have to overpay more so than other teams. Then they’ll come out and say “I love NY, it;s original six, blah blah blah…” but that’s BS. It was a financial decision.
When’s the last time a player took a discount to play here (exluding Prospal because he’s still paid by TB), because they genuinely wanted to be a part of the organization and a winning culture?
Well when they are restricted they cant really choose to come here. And they cant choose who drafts them…so really its not a bad game plan to pay Free Agents and treat them better as they do have the choice.
If Dubi and Staal improve they will get their money.
by Blueshirt in Paris on Jul 2, 2010 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions
but we’re not talking about RFA’s at the moment.
The point can be extended though, because when players like Dubi and Staal become UFA’s, eventually, there’s a good chance they’ll walk immediately because of their dislike for the organization.
In this sense, it’s hard to truly develop home-grown franchise players, because no one wants to stick around long enough.
I highly doubt it, since if they are as upset about money as you imagine then they will make the most here and make the Rangers pay!
by Blueshirt in Paris on Jul 2, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Since the lockout and CBA – feel free to list all those premier players who’ve signed somewhere at a discount.
Hossa?
Heatley?
Wait – maybe Savard…..ooops nope.
Maybe Kovalchuk will go back to Atlanta at a discount.
Sorry – I can’t come up with any. Can you ?
off the top of my head? I can’t… and that’ll take more research than I have time for right now.
But I know there have been plenty of ‘discounts’ contracts out there – maybe not for the top players in the league, but we can’t even get a discount on guys like Boogaard!
How do we expect guys like Staal and Dubi to settle for less money if we don’t even treat them properly?
I’ll talk specifically about Marc Staal – when he becomes UFA eligible in a couple years.
I’ve said repeatedly that he’s ranked one of, or in some cases (statistically) the top defensive defenseman in the league.
To expect someone in that category to “settle” for less than fair-market value is unrealistic. If the Rangers have the best offer – he’ll stay. If not, he’s gone. Simple.
You get “home town discounts” for your own players who are role players – there are no discounts for top-level UFAs who make it to July 1.
This is the “business” side of things. There’s a limited pool of top talent. There’s a larger pool of “mid-level” talent. Just as in other businesses, top talent requires top pay and benefits – if your “package” doesn’t offer something that company B’s “package” does – the candidate is likely to go with company B – should he/she find that difference compelling.
For top-level talent – no discounts.
Mid-level talent is a different story altogether. That’s the difference between a Staal (top level) and a Dubinsky/Callahan (mid-level).
I disagree – I think that if the team is up against the cap when a top-level player becomes a free agent, and that player has been taken care of their whole career up until that point, and loves the organization, there’s a good chance that they take a small discount to stay with the team that they’ve been with their whole career.
Would they go way under market value? Of course not – but they may dip their demands a few hundred thousand, to give back to the organization that’s given so much to them.
Point is, this is a possible scenario. The possibility of this is enough to make me want to take care of my RFA’s and the players I see as franchise cornerstones… so when their time comes, they’ll consider staying, even some jackass organization promises to overpay them.
but what might end up happening
is players like Dubinsky and Callahan and Staal go elsewhere, because they don’t like the way they are treated
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"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 7:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Please feel free to provide a list of those who played in the NHL as RFAs with the Rangers since the lockout, and left as UFAs because they were mistreated.
I suspect it’s a very long list – since you’re making such a huge deal out of this.
Stop asking for evidence for something that needs none.
we’re talking logic, and hypothetical situations – no list is needed.
elementary logic – if a, then b. If I’m mistreated, I’m pissed and will leave.
It’s a possible scenario – no one is saying it’s definite. What we’re saying is simple. This COULD happen. Why not avoid the possibility, by not treating people like shit.
the phrase “this is a business”, has always been the justification for some of the worst misdeeds in modern history. It will never be okay.
Philosophy aside, I agree with Joe here.
This creates a culture within the organization that makes it unpleasant for players to be here. That is damaging to the business.
Even though all businesses treat their employees like commodities, the best ones make it seem like they care, and treat their employees with some semblance of decency. Sather’s failure to recognize this can have damaging effects on the future of the team.
Ah – so you’d prefer the illusion of caring as opposed to the straight-shooter who tells it like it is?
You’d prefer to be deluded into believing that your employer loves you and cares about you above all else – even if deep down you know you’re completely replaceable unless you deliver to expectations?
I think most NHL players are big boys who know the score – probably a whole lot better than anyone posting here – including me.
but even the “delusion” brings with it more perks. If Sather was feeding that “illusion” then Staal would have been signed already to something that he might deserve, and not be tooled around for a while.
Look at a company like google – they may still only look at their employees like commodities, but they lavish them with perks to keep them happy. With those added benefits, this ‘illusion’ actually becomes a reality.
Sure the players know the score… but a decent team, with a decent GM, wouldn’t blatantly dick them around, low ball them, throw silly money at FA douchebags, and not take care of their players – so again, the ‘illusion’ becomes reality, because although they’re still commodities, they’re treated better.
Do you know anyone who works/worked at Google? Or are you projecting the delusion that Google wants you to believe?
I do actually… and have brothers-in-law, friends, etc… working for other companies with similar benefits.
Comparing my brother-in-law’s experience at one major company, to my brother’s experience in another, proves the point nicely. One was mistreated, along with other employees, which created a terrible atmosphere… the other corp. treats their employees much better, and runs quite smoothly – don’t think it’s appropriate to go into further detail.
but those companies aren’t the point – the point is the business model. One is successful, the other is not.
And my own experience is similar – having been in situations like your brother and your brother-in-law.
The point is that you seem to believe that NHL teams are like those disparate companies. I believe there is more commonality than differences. Other than anecdotal evidence, there is no proof for either contention.
The business model holds true, even in the NHL. Take a look at the difference between a team like Detroit and a team like the Rangers.
The organizations operate very differently… one is successful, the other is not.
that’s a silly example because Detroit did not have the ability to give him even near the terms he was worth, without crippling their future. If it was a difference of 500K, I think he would have stayed… but it wasn’t, it was years and millions.
Silly? Really.. Interesting.
Traded from ATL to PIT (no hometown discount to ATL).
Hits UFA, leaves PIT for a 1 year deal to DET for only $450k more than his last year at ATL/PIT.
DET lets him go in UFA, and he signs for only a net salary increase of $450k more in CHI.
It’s a business – and DET made a conscious decision that they did not want him for the term (number of years) he was seeking. He didn’t give a hometown discount, and they didn’t buckle on terms.
This is a silly example because it doesn’t fit the earlier conversation. Hossa bounced around because none of the teams had exactly what he was looking for – big money, long-term, best chance to win. ATL, obvious. He chose Detroit over Pit for best chance to win. He then chose CHI for best chance + money/term, the term which DET could not offer him.
This situation is completely different from our earlier point, which is that treating RFA’s and players in general with care and respect, makes them more willing to stay. Hossa was treated wonderfully at all of those stop but continued to move for different reasons. My point is that, if, somewhere down the line Staal is a FA, and NY has what he wants (chance to win, $$, term) he is more willing to stay if he has been treated well his whole career.
On the flip side, if he has not been treated ‘well’, he could easily switch to another team that also has what he wants (chance to win, term, $$) simply because he doesn’t like the organization of the Rangers.
All other things being equal, he may take that 500k discount in NY because they have the term and chance to win, AND they’ve treated him well his whole career up to that point. It’s just a possible scenario that we can avoid by changing the culture of the organization.
First – this whole thread is a tangle of RFA/UFA and various other sundry items. Dismissing anything as “silly” is denigrating to the same level as you declare the NYR treating their players.
Simply put – using a contract negotiation situation as descriptive of the “culture of an organization” – when going purely by anecdotal public evidence – does not make it “fact”.
I now believe that we’re at an impasse, and I will agree to disagree.
Cheers.
treating RFA’s and players in general with care and respect, makes them more willing to stay
it’s not the only thing that makes them stay – but all else equal, it helps.
To add
What does Orr make if we cant compare Dubinsky to Boog? 1 mill per. Okay, now add in that you might get 3 or 4 goals from Orr or Shelley. You know they can protect and be good locker room presences. Probably all the same on defense. So, why does Boog get 40% more than them? or 10% less than Dubinsky? Horrible signing period thats why. Sather thought he would get no one and panicked. Also, wasnt the kid we drafted suppose to have ’’JAM’’ or we. This signing IS just below the Redden signing and just above the Gomez signing. More or less equal to the Kotalik signing which was a ? until he play and we all found out the hard way. Joe is 110% right this signing was bad for the team, rfa’s and existing players…ATROCIOUS
by louielounz1 on Jul 2, 2010 1:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Unpopular...
..but Gomez gave us 70 points against 1st line competition every night. I mean, in today’s NHL, maybe it’s not $7m, but it’s close to $6m.
Drury’s given us 2nd line production, solid PP numbers and a strong PK, until last year. Last year’s version maybe only worth $3m..but the two years prior he was worth at least $5m.
Redden….yeah even I can’t defend that one.
To me….Booger’s overpaid by $1.65m, and thus worse than Gomez and close to worse than pre 2010 Drury.
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by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
better defensive forward
He was -2.07 per 60 minutes of ice time. He was on the ice for 20 goals in 350 minutes last year.
Two years ago, he had a ’solid year, only yielding 3 goals on the ice in 254 minutes, posting a semi-solid +0.72 per 60.
Three years ago, 6 in 132 minutes, -2.27 per 60.
So Booger: -2.27, 0.72, -2.07. 29 goals in 736 minutes.
Shelley over that time? -0.67 per 60, -0.84, and +0.79, 33 total goals against in 1047 minutes.
Saying he’s better defensively is like calling Redden a Norris candidate.
In 2 or 3 years, enforcers may be making 2 million a year, or more.
Only if Sather is still in the league. As Rob says above, these guys are dwindling rapidly, and they’re invisible in the playoffs. They get less than 500 minutes of ice time per season as it is, eventually even Sather will realize that guys with no hockey skills other than hitting stuff are a waste of cap money.
Nobody’s saying they don’t need somebody that will stand up for people, clearly that’s a part of the game. But you do it with guys like Chris Neil, or Ben Eager, or Mike Rupp now.
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by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions
i think this is sather’s fault for the contract he gave brashier last year thats why the goon’s are asking for this much if a 37 year old who does not play can get 1.4 hey why can’t i get 1.65
Well, I’m inclined to believe the rumors that other people were gunning for Booger, and Sather just drove the price to the ridiculous to make sure he got him, because he overreacted to losing Shelley.
Whether that’s what actually happened, I have no concept. But that’s how I see it.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 11:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Rofl @ Peter.
You make it sound like we are the Detroit Red Wings but our fanbase is just a bunch of whiny cry babies. Everything you just posted is completely laughable nonsense. Do you think we like having an old dinosaur GM who drinks too much who has had our team in an endless loop of mediocrity where we finish anywhere from 6-10 and then if we made the playoffs at best we are a second round knockout? The Rangers front office is a joke, they continually embarrass the organization and the fanbase by paying wannabe MMA fighters 7 million dollars to play hockey. They are a mess. Do you think we would prefer a good front office who made logical, sound, decisions?
You know what is becoming tiresome? Watching the Rangers do the same stupid shit every single year and act like we are going to have different results. If you find the fan bases intolerance over a never ending loop of mediocrity “tiring”, then maybe you should climb the fuck down off the horse you are sitting on and go somewhere else.
Maybe the Metsblog equivalent of BSB, where they paint everything in homer colored glasses, regardless of what the reality of the situation is, would be a better environment for you to drool over moronic enforcer signings for 7 million dollars.
"Relax, all right? Don't try to strike everybody out. Strikeouts are boring; besides that, they're fascist. Throw some ground balls. It's more democratic."
- CRASH DAVIS
What’s up now…? Any predictions for the Rangers today or do I have to wait for the Mets to sign Cliff Lee for my “happy fan moment” of the summer. (Like that’ll happen)
hee hee
way to go Rangers – i guess Boom Boom Geoffrion wanted a three year deal, and Slats only offered 2?
please keep running your franchise like crap – it makes it so much easier for the rest of us when we dont have to take you seriously
I think I puked about 8 times after I saw the details of the signing. For an organization that prides itself on class, the rangers sure as hell don’t display it. How about re-signing Staal and Girardi? Boogard will make $1.65 over the course of probably playing 40 games, 30+ healthy scratches, and at least 1 major suspension.
Hows the packing for Kansas City?
Need an extra hand?
by mjbnyr on Jul 2, 2010 10:09 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Im just an observer...
but you guys really have to come up with something better than this. For the sake of the rivalry, come on.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Jul 3, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
boogard signing was bad, no doubt,
but stop complaining about staal negotiations, sather should not be giving him anything more than 3.5m at this point, especially when comparables are making 4 and 4.25 ON THE OPEN MARKET. Staal is a 23 year old restricted free agent
Ahmad I will agree with you there
to a degree. Sather’s 4/14 year offer was fair, it was. But with Boogaard signing the contract he did Staal has every right to demand 4 million a year.
You actually could have made arguments that he deserved 4 million before the Boogy Man signing but that is neither here nor there.
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions
Sathers offer was fair but what about guys like Kane, Toews, Crosby, Tavares, Pavelski, other Staals…etc they got shown respect immediatly. If Staal asks for 4 yrs at 18mill thats absurd but 16mill isnt. just sayin.
by louielounz1 on Jul 2, 2010 2:06 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Terrible signing
No defense for Sather on this. This guy contributes nothing to the team aside from fighting. You’d think Sather would have learned from the Brashear debacle from last season.
It’s still early, and I haven’t heard any word of Bobby Ryan wanting to sign with Anaheim (he gave an interview saying he knew he wasn’t going to get as much as Getlaf or Perry, so why would he turn down a 5mil/ 5year deal that’s just below theirs…). Maybe he’s holding out for an offer sheet from somewhere else? Sign and trade?
Also, what’s the word on Neal? I know I hijacked this thread, but I’m disgusted.
They no longer want a team that wins
They just want a team that kicks ass. I completley agree with everyone that we overpay for the wrong players and it causes problems with the right players.
Right now I think we might be worse than last year. They should be packaging players for better players. Keep the players that work out playing in the big apple and get rid of the ones that do not. We are like a junkyard collecting broken down vehicles. Maybe we can still get Zherdev back. At least he puts the puck in the net.
Right now I think we might be worse than last year.
Well, as of right now, they’re (presuming the RFAs sign) bringing back the same D & G as last year, one that no matter how much we hate, was still top 10 (maybe 11th, I"m not looking) in GA.
On offense, Dubinsky, Prust and Anisimov should improve, a full year now of EC should improve. The only real decline you should see is the dropoff from Shelley to Booger, which while immense, is not impactful for 5 min a night. If that goes to 10 like he did with Shelley, it’s a problem.
They’re not extraordinarily better, but I don’t see them being any worse than last year. I just hope if it is a repeat of last year, that they’re smarter this time around and actually sell at the deadline. I also hope to win lotto without actually playing, I’m not sure which of these two statements is more likely.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 9:23 AM EDT up reply actions
Geez..
The more I read into the details of the deal, the sicker I got. But, I’m wondering if he is there not only to protect Gabby, but instil some confidence in our younger players coming up. I know if I was a rookie and and wanted to go out a show my stuff in the NHL, I would be much more confident knowing I had Boogy watching my back, knowing that if someone cheap shotted me, they would get their’s back tenfold. Sure, the money is silly, but he is a scary beast.
Another point, Glen always makes up for bad signings with good ones and if I’m correct you can be over the cap until the first game. (Am I right in this point?) So let’s just see what else he can come up with because after this, he NEEDS to come through. Maybe it was a favor for Gabby because they are buddies. Let them build it for Gabby. They built it for Jags and look how fun that was to watch. I say it’s not over yet. Lets see if that old Di&KHEAD can pull a rabbit out of his cigar one last time…./
hey anyone else think...
that we can take advantage of the flames right now….sutter looks kinda stupid now and seems to be making bad deals just as bad as the rangers if not worse…how about making a play for iginla…iginla must be pissed with the signing of jokinen maybe he’d wanna leave
Iginla liked Tanguay though, and they both had career years playing together. Joker is funny, but Iginla should be settled.
Not to say you can’t take advantage of Sutter, clearly you can, but they’re not going to move Iginla now, I don’t think.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions
it's not even if they're going to be worse
they’re essentially standing still, in all likelihood, and the teams they finished ahead of in the east are improving, and the rangers only finished as high as they did by benefiting from an (as it turns out, disastrous) late run
they finished four point ahead of atlanta, and i think atlanta is going to be a better team this year based on their (to this point) deals with chicago
they finished seven points ahead of carolina and tampa….does anyone think with tampa’s firepower we’ll finish ahead of them again this year? beyond that, the islanders were eight points back….but they’re the islanders….
even with king henrik, it’s not inconceivable to me that they could easily be a bottom-5 team this year, especially if the ‘youth movement’ stagnates
This from a man who thinks the plural of goose is sheep.
What was the use
In re-signing Dane Byers?
Right now their prospective forwards for next season:
© EC/Anisimov/Drury/Boyle
(LW) Prospal/Dubi/Avery/Booger
(RW) Gaborik/Cally/Weise/Prust
Most likely Avery/Booger/Weise/Prust will divvy up 3rd and 4th line minutes and see no special teams time. I have a sense that there will be not much of an open competition for roster spots for Grachev/Byers and anyone else that might bring even a marginal upgrade in skill.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Jul 2, 2010 9:46 AM EDT reply actions
Byers should have gotten the spot over Boogaard. We did not have to sign Boogaard and NO SLATS HE IS NOT GOING TO PREVENT PLAYERS FROM GIVING HANK SNOW SHOWERS!
Byers should have gotten that spot, I agree. This is what I am talking about with trusting management to properly bring up our prospects and develop a future. They don’t know how it seems.
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by Nick Montemagno on Jul 2, 2010 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions
And...
Byers scored a goal and got into a fight (however ill-advised it was) in his Rangers debut from last season…after arriving moments before the game. The kid wants to play in the NHL and he’s a blood and guts player that will stick up for teammates.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Jul 2, 2010 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Yep, that game against the Wild (how ironic) Byers was one of the better players on the ice. I didn’t even hear Boogaard’s name called down the other end in the game.
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by Nick Montemagno on Jul 2, 2010 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Little tidbit from http://thehockeysuit.blogspot.com/
Aaron Voros ($1 mill), who forgot how to fight, Donald Brashear ($1.4 mill), who forgot how to skate, and now Derek Boogaard ($1.65 mill), who never knew how to play hockey to begin with and we now have a total of $4,050,000 wasted on goons.
You know what? For the fun of it, let’s add Wade Redden and his $6.5 million salary. That’s $10,550,000 invested for a total of 5 goals received.
I don’t even want to joke about what we could get for that kind of money.
It’s funny. When you were first mentioning the players, the more useless the player became, the more salary they received from Sather.
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by Nick Montemagno on Jul 2, 2010 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions
LOL
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by Nick Montemagno on Jul 2, 2010 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Why is management so blind?
This signing will hurt the Rangers more as an organization than it will as a team, basically what Joe said in this article. You guys have mostly covered the major points in the comments already, but I would like to say this.
If we can see that this signing was a mistake and that it will hurt the club in the future when they go to re-sign players like Brandon Dubinsky, Ryan Callahan, and our future prospects, then why the hell can’t Sather and a whole staff of “experts” not see this? I mean you all saw the reaction of the guys on TSN yesterday when we made the signing. It is no secret, this was a major mistake and not for the reasons most people think.
It sets a precedent that Sather cannot avoid in the future now and why couldn’t anyone in the management realize that before they pulled the trigger. That makes me very nervous trusting these guys that they will make the right decisions in the future. We are only a few years away from contending if all of our prospects are developed correctly and are introduced to the NHL at the right time.
Sather has been around management in the NHL since my Dad was a friggin’ kid and you’re telling e he still cannot see obvious problems forming before he makes foolish moves like that. Not good…….
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It's not blindness.
Sather only believes in ‘the market’. He would disagree with what we’re saying. To him it’s as simple as this:
What’s market value? For a FREE AGENT, it’s higher than for a RFA. Because of the market, Booger has more leverage as an FA. Therefore, it’s OKAY to overpay him. Sather expects to, and accepts that he will overpay free agents. As an RFA, in sather’s mind, our players have no leverage. He can lowball them, and win. He has the leverage, he has the power. To him, it’s that simple.
What he doesn’t get, is that it doesn’t HAVE to be that way. He can recognize the human element in the market, take a stand and say: “I won’t overpay for Free Agents”, and then turn around and give our RFA’s exactly what they deserve regardless of the fact that they have no leverage. That would exhibit loyalty and dignity to the players in the organization, and establish a positive culture here.
But that’s not Sather. He believes in the Market, he considers this only business – he doesn’t give a rats ass about how the players feel. And that’s why he’ll never build a successful organization.
We need him gone.
Not gonna disagree with that: Sather’s mind is a little off.
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by Nick Montemagno on Jul 2, 2010 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't get one argument Boogaard defenders are making
Who cares if he’s younger than Shelley? That might be important in a conversation where we’re talking about degradation of skill over time. Our argument is that Boogaard HAS no skill. Who flipping cares if he’s only 28? He could be 50 and still be the same player and be just as useless.
“We got this new kid who’s 18!”
“Can he play?”
“No. BUT HE’S 18!!!!!!”
right in the button
You are right on the button with your analysis.
Quick trivia question:
How many NHL goals have the entire blueshirt banter team scored in the last 4 years?
Answer: The same as Boogaard……….NONE!!!!!!!
Sather has to be fired NOW….TODAY…….Dolan, you idiot, stop kissing Lebron James butt and get back here and fire this guy………..NOW
There doesn't appear to be a plan
What I find most distressing is the ntion that because we lost Shelly, we NEEDED Boogaard. Why is Sather always reacting? [Put aside the question of what the hell is he reactig to.] If we are in rebuilding mode, then so be it. If Boogaard had been signed for one or two years, no biggie. By the time the “team” gets to the NHL, he’d be gone. This would be a plan. If we are rebuilding, why give this guy four years?
Last time, we waited 54 years. I’d be willing to wait another two or three for guys to develop but MSG is not. MSG appears to run its franchises like the WWE—if you can’t win, “entertain” with clowns (Boogaard). No contender has ever been built this way.
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jul 2, 2010 9:55 AM EDT reply actions
Messier is being trained by Sather. I can’t see how anyone supports him as a successor.
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by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 10:00 AM EDT up reply actions
I honestly think that Messier would be a better GM
at the end of the day Sather is pretty good on trade deadline deals, and signing undrafted talent. BUT, Messier might be learning what not to do for everything else.
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"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
My working thesis is that it doesn’t matter who the GM is. The pressure from MSG will always be to entertain, sell seats, sell cable subscriptions, sell cable service and win only if that doesn’t conflict with the other priorities. We are not owned by George Steinbrenner (and I’m a Met fan).
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jul 2, 2010 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions
true
But Sather is accomplishing that even as he’s angering the more intelligent and loyal fans.
Messier can still accomplish that, even if he does the exact opposite that Sather has done.
But Sather has rebuilt (after the lockout) the “farm system.” We have lots of prospects. The problem is (as it was before teh lockout), that young players rarely are preferred over “established” veterans. The reason for this, I suspect, is the belief that people won;t pay to see kids lose for a few years and that big names will fill the seats and sell cable service.
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jul 2, 2010 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Gordie Clark rebuilt the farm system.
Sather has basically come out and said he plays little to no role in drafting these kids the last couple years.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions
OK
The point is that MSG is the boss of them all. Didn’t Sather hire Clark?
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jul 2, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
yes he did
and for that he deserves credit. BUT!
People like to act like Sather doesn’t want to win. If you think that, they you are highly delusional. Sather does want to win, he’s just not good at making it happen.
But when a sure bet like Gordie Clark comes into your life, you don’t say no.
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
Probably…I assume the GM hires the personnel director.
The development of the kids from AHL to NHL is the problem, and yes, that could probably be attributed to the pressure Dolan puts on Sather to fill the Garden.
It’s a false belief that people won’t pay to see kids lose. Fans want to see the team move in the correct direction. In a lot of ways, having the kids out there is better than listless veterans. I’m not sure how that perception came to be, but that’s what it is. It’s not just Dolan/Sather in that regard.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions
No one is saying that Sather doesn’t want to win. All I’m saying is that winning is not the priority with MSG.
If this was Edmonton in the early 1980s Gretsky and Messier would still be in Hartford. [Sorry, I was serious for too long.]
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jul 2, 2010 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions
actually the Sather wanting to win wasn't directed at you
there are more than a few people here who actually believe that Sather wants to lose. It’s stupid. But that wasn’t to you
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
That’s the nicest thing anyone said to me this year.
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jul 2, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
in these dark times
we must walk together … lol
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
If this were the 80’s Oilers, they never would’ve dropped low enough in the standings to get Gretzky in the first place. They’d be constantly stop-gapping and finishing in the worst possible draft positions.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
True
And they wouldn’t have drafted them anyway if they were still available.
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jul 2, 2010 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions
The pressure from MSG will always be to entertain, sell seats, sell cable subscriptions, sell cable service and win only if that doesn’t conflict with the other priorities.
That is the priority everywhere, dont let all the other teams fool you.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Jul 3, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
well, minus the selling cable service part... but they all want TV ratings for commericals so even there it works.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Jul 3, 2010 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions
agreed Joe
People seem to think that Messier is some sort of mindless automaton, who’s being programed by Sather.
He’s not. Messier is his own living, breathing, thinking being. There’s a good chance that he is watching Sather’s moves and saying “WTF?”
There’s a good chance that Messier will show more loyalty to his RFA’s, and not overpay FA’s.
We don’t KNOW what Messier is buying from Sather, and what he is not.
Fair.
We don’t know what’s going on in that room. Maybe Messier is speaking up and Sather’s telling him “Mark, you don’t know what you’re talking about.” That’s absolutely plausible.
With the amount of times this has gone on though, forgive me for being highly skeptical. And that’s from someone who became a Rangers fan because of Mess.
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by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions
The way I see it, you can learn by watching someone by larning what to do AND learning what NOT to do.
Mess might do fine, who knows? A teams former player can turn out to be a good GM, it can happen.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Jul 3, 2010 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions
Sather has a vision
It’s tunnel vision focused on giving out the worst contracts in the league every off-season.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Jul 2, 2010 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Again
I would have been fine with letting this team go into run-off mode for the next two seasons. While the Pens and Caps have their core on their teams before becoming salary cap victims (if Pitt isn’t half way there with too much devoted to their centers), the Rangers are not going to challenge for the division/conference/Cup. After 2012, you get Drury and Rozi coming off the books and hopefully 2 or 3 of the prospects have panned out into dependable players.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Jul 2, 2010 10:01 AM EDT reply actions
when judged against a sather scale yesterday was a pretty good day. three solid, value signings in prospal, ec and biron (four if you include stepan coming in officially) compared to only one awful one. sather is making tremendous strides guys. you cant go from be an addict to be clean over night. we need to give him at least another decade! : )
Sathers mind...
Okay, lets see a life in Sathers mind.
Colton Orr…nah here’s the door go to Canada even though your a fan favorite.
Brashear your worthless and have less skating ability then Orr you’ll fit right in with what Torts said he wanted.
Wait…did he want good skaters or good skates? I forget. Whatever Brashear used to be the best fighter around. Ah, his old fights give me a woodie. Okay, Sather pull it together lets give him 1.4 million he will eventually lose his good looks so he’ll need the money for a plastic surgeon.
4 months later…
Why did I sign this guy what a waste, Ahh what ever lets trade a pick for another goon.
Shelley looks good.
2 months later. Shelley looked like a fan favorite and actually scored with some of our guys. You want what Shelley? 1.1 million no way.
Wait there’s no more enforcers out there shit. Ahhhh what do i what do i do!!!
Boogaard at 1.65 million uhh well maybe if i give him that for the remander of Reddens contract they’ll stop talking about that on that fking site! yes it’s genius. Sold Boogaard welcome to the team.
It was our faults all along LMAO
more fun news
thenyrangers Rousing start to #NYR scrimmage as first rounder Dylan McIlrath wipes out first rounder Chris Kreider
On a scale of anticipation/enthusiasm from 1 to 100, I was a 1 when he was a drafted, and I’m already up to about an 85 with this kid. The more I hear, the more I like.
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by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions
Except he has to stop hitting our guys.
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jul 2, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
well he has to in camp
otherwise they’ll sanguinetti him lol
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Eh...details details.
Maybe stop hitting Kreider…but he can his Pashain and the lesser guys all he wants. lol
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by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
hit even.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
At least everyones done pissing on the kid. While he was an unexpected pick, I said on the Isles boards that night that he is a much more promising draft pick than people were giving him credit for being.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Jul 3, 2010 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m impressed he was able to keep up with him to line him up.
by Blueshirt in Paris on Jul 2, 2010 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions
they said that his positioning is top flight
which is awesome for a dman to have at 18
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 10:47 AM EDT up reply actions
again
that’s not the point of the article. The point is that Sather contiunes to mistreat RFA’s and overpay for positional players who will have a glorified role for the team regardless
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah maybe
But have we really gotten to the point where percentages matter? It can be buried, eaten, traded, waived, etc…going by actual amounts and reality those others cant/wont.
Rissmiller and Voros is worse percentage wise I think.
by Blueshirt in Paris on Jul 2, 2010 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions
More prospecting
AGrossRecord
Christian Thomas with 2 goals as White leads 3-2 at #NYRangers prospect camp bot G Scott Stajcer stops Thomas on penalty shot.
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Another thing I am questioning about this deal...
Joe: Aside from being overpaid at 1.65 per, You brought up the obvious & BAFFLING fact that Sather didn’t want to sign Shelley to a three year deal but then turns around and signs BOOGER to a four year deal…Whats going to happen in 2-3 years when McIlrath is ready to make the leap into the NHL? Or even Pashnin? (whom supposedly isnt afraid to thow down) I realize both of these guys are defenseman and if they turn out as good as they are supposed to be then we may not want them to drop the gloves in all situations, but When the time comes for them to find a spot on the roster, will Boogard even fill a need?
I liked Shelley and wish we kept him, but i think Prust, (and MAYBE even Voros) could have filled the position of the enforcers. I know neither of them are heavy weights, but Prust can definately fight . and on top of it all how often do we need a straight up tough guy. Does this all just stem from Gaborik getting beat up?
Also, is there any other big guys (besides shelley) available that we could have signed for 2 years or at least less than 1.65? Just curious…
Im sure I said somthing stupid along these lines… feel free point it out and correct me!
AGrossRecord Ryan Bourque scores winner as White wins 4-3 at #NYRangers prospect camp.
that’s his 2nd of the day i believe
6-4 yesterday, 4-3 today. At least these kids can score goals.
Either that or we really do have nothing of worth in goal in the system.
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by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Yesterday..Wednesday…days kind of blend for me.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Pardon my ignorance (with news only trickling in here in Australia)...
Would it be safe to say that the Boogard signing really IS (as reported earlier here) almost solely tied to Gaborik requesting this move (for protection)? If so, a tad troubling.
Related – and to take a respite from the nausea this signing produced – perhaps (like Shelley, Prust) there’s more to Boogard’s game than his statistics argue for? Meaning, underutilized? (Yes, I’m grasping here.)
I hope some of you are watching the World Cup game. Just sayin’.
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
Related – and to take a respite from the nausea this signing produced – perhaps (like Shelley, Prust) there’s more to Boogard’s game than his statistics argue for? Meaning, underutilized? (
There’s nothing I’ve found in any stat that shines a good light on this guy. It’s clear there is something to him since he’s still in the league, but there are things that support Prust and Shelley helping a team.
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by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
His value is in the intangibles
People in the seats buy more beer when there are fights.
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jul 2, 2010 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
See…there’s no stat for that. You could be a pioneer!
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions
If we needed fannies in seats...
Why not have made a play for Evgeny Artuykhin? I’m not confident he’s available, but I watched him a great deal when in Tampa. The guy is a beast, has untapped potential (meaning decent hands), and is seemingly in a doghouse over in Atlanta.
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
I could be on board with him. Kinda curious what the hell happened the last two years though…so he went from 151 shots to 21 is unsettling, along with the radical drop in PIMs, not sure what he’s bringing to the table these days.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Last World Cup post in this thread (I promise!)
The Dutch just took the lead. Unreal. This is going to be a great finish, folks. Now back to UFA. :)
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
Really. That means there's hope for us.
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jul 2, 2010 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
Only if we adopt an orange third jersey...? :)
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
Its what's in the jersey that counts.
No more jerseys. Please. Tired of buying my son all the colors. (P.S. Watched the last 10 minutes. of the Dutch win)
by It may HAVE to Last a Lifetime on Jul 2, 2010 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions
According to Helene Elliott of the LA Times, Ilya Kovalchuk is reportedly asking for $10 million per season over 10 years from the Los Angeles Kings.
haha. he is crazier than even i thought.
Nobody in the NHL is worth $6Boogs.
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by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
gotta love those russians… jsut cause you get in the khl doesnt mean you should get it here ilya!
by BronxBeliever on Jul 2, 2010 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
I know it's comparing apples to oranges...
…but I’d rather take a flyer on Frolov for two years, 3-4mil, than 3x that for longer term Ilya. Tanguay, however, is not worth a bag of Big League Chew.
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
That's 3-4mil PER, to state the obvious. :)
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
same i think there are better ways to spend that kind of money than on frolov
by BronxBeliever on Jul 2, 2010 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Do you really think he'll get that (after such inconsistency the past couple seasons)?
Not much difference between he an Jokinen in diminishing returns, reputation.
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
If Frolov's worth that much...how much could Stephon Marbury on skates produce in the KHL?
Imagine the potential of Starbury skates.
"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY
dont think we talked about Stepan’s contract
reports say 820K cap hit for the 3 years, very similar to AA’s 2nd round deal. 87,500 signing bonus.
to the point about Kreider’s speed we have a funny quote from Step as well.
"Great kid, great teammate, can’t say enough about him. He’s a machine," Stepan said. "When you’re playing against him you can’ t catch him. I learned that lesson the way – I tried to catch him once and I went into the boards and was unconscious for 25 seconds."
I liked the idea of trading for Souray much better than just claiming him off the scrap heap. At least when you traded for him, you had the ability to shed a different crappy contract in return.
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by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 12:30 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah – agree. Although I never understood why EDM would want the extra 2 years of Dreaden’s contract/cap hit…..
Well…like I put in the souray for redden thread, there was a window when Edmonton was trying to shed their smaller shitty contracts (Moreau, Nilsson, O’Sullivan) where an opportunity might’ve been there to take a short-term cap hit to save the last two years of the deal.
That’s gone now, so now I have no idea why they’d take Redden, unless they don’t mind burying him too.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Souray – 34 y/o – 2 years left at 4.5mm salary/5.4mm cap hit
Redden – 33 y/o – 2 years at 6.5mm salary/6.5mm cap hit
- 2 years at 5.0mm salary/6.5mm cap hit
Bury Redden and grab Souray, you save 1.1mm on the cap. Not even enough to cover Boogaard…… ;-)
Or just forget Souray, dump Redden and sign Willie Mitchell for half of that
by Blueshirt in Paris on Jul 2, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
This is great news. Hopefully this gets Glen thinking that if Edm. can do this with Souray, we can definitely do this with Redden.
by WalkerNYRanger on Jul 2, 2010 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Don't know if this was posted, Youth movement?
NHLSourcesSay Penguins targeting Higgins, however Guerin looks to be the more ideal signing. NYR also in on Guerin.
yea we talked about it yesterday. there are really few if any spots other than 4th line for youth now anyway.
Unless they do something about the defense.
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by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Why in the world would Guerin want to play for the Rangers? Is he getting tired of having to play in the postseason every year?
by NTB on Jul 2, 2010 1:45 PM EDT up reply actions
He figures Sather will give him 3yr/$12 for his retirement contract.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions
WTF?
No need for that geezer. They might as well ask Shanny to un-retire.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Jul 2, 2010 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions
If Guerin plays another season
There’s almost no chance it’s not with the Penguins.
by Lunkwill Fook on Jul 2, 2010 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions
kausatoday Hearing out of Florida that Chris Higgins is about to sign with Panthers for one season at $1.6 million.
look, Higgins got a Boogey
Boogard on the PP
in front of the net. Perfect screen, especially with shooters at the point
Rangers FTW!
by BleedsRangerBlue on Jul 2, 2010 1:18 PM EDT reply actions
Christ almighty
I am having an argument with someone on a different blog about how the Boogaard deal essentially sets the bottom line for future negotiations with the Rangers. I used the example that even a 3rd liner can now say they want at least $1.65mn because Boogaard can be considered the least valuable player on the team.
People are trying to make the point that because he’s an “enforcer” his value is determined using a different scale.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Jul 2, 2010 1:20 PM EDT reply actions
That’s the argument you have to get. When talking about enforcers, you have to rely on intangibles because there’s literally nothing else that can be used for defense.
They obviously lose immediately when compared to anybody with skill. Where there value lies is up for debate, which is why every Boogaard thread will get 100+ comments.
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by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions
So let me just state some facts here.....
One year ago Sather lets Colton Orr go to Toronto for 4 years at 1 mill/per. We can all agree that Orr was a great team guy who was a pretty damn good fighter, no?
Signs Brashear to a 2 year contract at 1.4 mill/per because he was a better skater, can fight better, and can get in on the forecheck. Not to mention ignoring the disgraceful cheapshot of another Ranger fan fav in Betts.
Brashear doesn’t last a full year. Buries Brashear in the minors not even a full year into his first season and signs Shelley at 1 years @ 725k/per. Let’s not forget about the 6th round pick given up. He actually fits well on a fourth line, has good chemistry with Prust and AA. Gives Torts the ability to use the 4th line a little more.
Sather offers Shelley 2 years @ 850k/per, which is 125k more than Sather’s initial offer to Christensen. I’m really just trying to figure out the basis for all these numbers.
Shelley declines and signs in Philly @ 3 years 1.1 mill/per.
Sather signs Boogaard to a 4 year contract @ 1.65 mill/per.
So how does ANY of this make sense???? Overpaying for a guy so you get something cause you didn’t want to overpay for the guy who you wasted a 6th round pick on AND who had chemistry on a line that your coach only used to use sparingly.
I don’t like the logic behind the argument that Boogaard’s deal will set a bottom line for all future deals. I’m sure Sather had Boogaard valued well under $1.65 million to start, but when Shelley wouldn’t agree to a 2 year deal Boogaard’s value went up in Sather’s eyes because he cherishes the enforcer position. I agree that he ended up overpaying, but to say that more skilled players are entitled to at least what Boogaard’s getting is off-base.
Salary negotiations are situational. They’re as much about what the free agent market looks like as individual skill. While some might try and argue Boogaard as a baseline, his salary is a sunk cost, and Sather will treat all future deals as unrelated. A guy like Staal might try to use Boogaard as a jumping off point, but if the market’s not working in his favor (as in there are cheaper defenseman of his skill level out there) then he’s going to be shit out of luck.
Actually I would disagree on your salary theory...
Salary negotiations are dictated by agents reading the current market value of certain types of players. Supply and demand play a major part in this particular situation BECAUSE Sather let Shelley go and who else was available. Then again, as in the Redden situation, who was Glen bidding against for Boogaard?
However under normal circumstances, agents of other players will use this sort of information as a basis for negotiations. It’s silly to think that players aren’t going to say, well you gave this guy 1.65 mill/per year for 4 years and he hasn’t scored a goal in 220-something games.
I agree with everything you just said. I’m sure a few guys will try and use Boogaard’s salary as an excuse to get the money they want, but that doesn’t mean shit. Like it or not, hockey is as much a business as it is a sport, and there are no precedents in business. There’s only the next deal. Staal has every right to argue he deserves as much as Boogaard, but what Sather winds up paying him will have nothing to do with that. If he sees a defenseman he likes on the open market, then Staal can take a hike. He’s not simply going to hand Staal the money because that’s what he paid Boogaard. That’s not how business works.
I guess what I’m saying is Staal always had the right to argue his worth, and the Boogaard signing hasn’t changed that or helped his case in any way. He was already asking for more money than the qualifying offer. Besides, if he was going to point to anyone to argue the case for more money he’s better off pointing to Wade Redden.
There’s no Boogaard precedent. Players can try and use him as a bargaining chip, but he’s not even their best example and it’ll wind up working on a case by case basis. That’s because every player is, in fact, “a completely different situation”.
Oh, and Minnesota and Edmonton were bidding on Boogaard as well. They backed off when the pay got “silly”.
I didn't know that...
I was under the impression that the initial figure Boogaard’s agent floated out there WAS the 4 years @ 1.65mill. I didn’t realize there was any back and forth or figures.
As far as that whole argument about there being a precedent or not based on salaries, I really didn’t want to get into it as it is all relative to the individuals position in the negotiations. However, and please don’t take this personally, but saying there are no precedents in business, there’s only the next deal is a rather ignorant comment. Point being, the Rangers need Staal more than he needs them. If you were Staal’s agent, how would you view this whole thing?
Players can demand the same deal Boogaard got, but that doesn’t mean they’re guaranteed to get it. That’s all I meant. There’s no standard saying Boogaard’s yearly pay is now the baseline for all Rangers players negotiating in the future. That being said, Staal will get his money because there’s no one as young or as good at what he does on the open market.
@DarrenDreger
Higgins. 1 year. $1.6 to Florida is done.
"Jaromir Jagr.... it's a POWER PLAY GOAL!"
- Sam Rosen
"Marian Gaborik.... it's a POWER PLAY GOAL!"
-Sam Rosen
Good value if he bounces back. Not the end of the world if he doesn’t @ 1 year.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Pair him with someone that is great with rebounds and banging in the ones he shoots wide, and he could have the most assists in the league.
by WalkerNYRanger on Jul 2, 2010 2:03 PM EDT up reply actions
Defenseman Milan “Juice” Jurcina and forward PA Parenteau have both signed 1 year contracts with the New York Islanders.
As Gross just added..with the Isles he’ll have a solid shot to play a full NHL season. Good for PA, but I won’t miss him.
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by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions
neither will I, but you know first goal he scores the crying will start like w dawes and prucha, lol.
Yup…add him to the list. God forbid he scores in a shootout against us.
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by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Isles really busy today
Signing Mark Eaton as well. Not sure what they’re doing with a 7’4" 80’s basketball player, but good for them.
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by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 3:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Ha! When the signing was first announced there was this Isles fan screaming about how the Isles gave a contract so someone so old who should retire and… then he realized that he didnt know who the hell he was tlaking about.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Jul 3, 2010 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions
According to Andrew Gross, Rangers prospect Ryan McDonagh says he will decide next week whether or not to sign with the Rangers or stay at Wisconsin and be Captain for his final season
#NYRangers prospect Ryan McDonagh says he was leaning one way before prospect camp. Enjoyed camp, will talk with family, college coach.
for me that means he was leaning to going back to school but now might be thinking about coming here, which would be huge news for us.
Don’t be sure it’s not Girardi or Gilroy.
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by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 2:47 PM EDT up reply actions
Almost has to be. If he was leaning towards signing, there’s nothing that should have changed his mind if everything went well.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions
NHLSourcesSay I can now confirm the Islanders are in hot pursuit for Alex Frolov, also told him and his agent are on there way to NY as we speak.
still think isles would be better off going big on Kovy, but if they want to overpay Frolov, fine by me, lol.
What FA would look at the Coliseum and all the aggravation Wang is having out there and want to sign with them?
one that sees a team with a lot of money and really good young roster. i hate the islanders as much as anyone, but anyone that fails to recognize they are probably going to be better than us possibly as soon as this year is being a homer.
That hole hasn’t changed since I saw the AC/DC For Those about to Rock Tour there in 1982.. Wang should make a deal with Wilpon or Prokhorov. Just dreaming here, but could the Rangers/ Islanders block Prokhorov from say buying say, the Yotes or some other struggling franchise, and moving them to Brooklyn?
Bettman and the other owners would block it. They want expansion fees, not relocation fees.
by NTB on Jul 2, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
tough to claim that the sport is in need expanding at this point. contraction actually has a stronger argument, imo
@mleetch, I would love to contract at least 6 teams. But you always hear about expansion. I would expect another couple of teams in the future.
by NTB on Jul 2, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
i read expanding markets not teams into it. it has failed in the Southern US, period. they can spin it however they want but it has. move atl, florida
Uh, they have painted since then. More than once, even.
And they have a nice scoreboard and those screens that wrap around the joint.
Of course other than that, I concede your point.
Let Us Go, Islanders! (Ever notice how strange that sounds without the contraction?)
by TheMetalChick on Jul 3, 2010 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions
Since I guess this is the open thread
I know we have no money left, but Grebeskov is still out there, and he’s not that far behind some of the d-men that signed yesterday.
If the Rangers still have something cooking, I’d much(x50) rather they look at him, than say, Souray. I’d even consider using Girardi’s money for him instead.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
Ditto Colaiacovo.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, Grebs missed the end of the year with “a lower body injury.” I don’t remember and can’t find if there was anything deeper. I’m wondering if maybe that’s why.
No idea why Mitchell and Colaiacovo, and even Corvo are all quiet.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 3:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Mitchell has serious concussion/injury problems last year.
by NTB on Jul 2, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions
monsters are such interesting people
The length of the contract aside, with all our younglings skating around in the NHL for the first time, it will be nice to have the boogeyman to put someone into the boards, through the glass and into the parking lot as retribution if need be. Provided he’s not permanently chained in Torts’ doghouse.
Uh-oh.
NHLSourcesSay:
Source contradicting Frolov to Islanders, apparently Islanders have no interest, maybe Frolov flying to NY for the Rangers? Stay tuned…
NHLSourcesSay Source contradicting Frolov to Islanders, apparently Islanders have no interest, maybe Frolov flying to NY for the Rangers? Stay tuned…
hopefully nowhere near his rumored price yesterday and only 1 year. either redden would have to go or this would cost us girardi?
seems as if Gross has the same read on McD we were having
At the beginning of the week, McDonagh said he was not going to make any decisions during the week but it definitely seemed like he was leaning toward returning to Wisconsin. That wasn’t the case when I talked to him today before he left.
Full quote from McD that gives even more context than the earlier one
"I can’t say enough about how much fun it was out here, everybody was great," the 6-1 McDonagh said. "This group of guys got pretty close over five days. I’ll take a few days over the weekend for July 4 and set it in stone early next week, meet with (Wisconsin) coach (Mike) Eaves and have a decision after that. I was kind of leaning one way for sure. Coming out of here having fun obviously helps the process. But I still want to go back and think things through."
read full thing http://blogs.northjersey.com/blogs/rangerrants/
Also talks about Kreider and the full camp thoughts. Kreider is interesting because all of a sudden there is a buzz out there that he might be ready to come out of school now. I think he does and should go back for another year.
Heh, just finished reading that. Interesting take on Pashnin:
Among the standout performers during the week: D Mikhail Pashnin, who has another season left on his KHL contact but clearly looked like a pro playing among many amateurs during the week.
Just another in a long line of d-men, and in the list of guys that we snagged in last year’s draft. Makes you wonder what this D will actually look like in a year or two.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Format fail.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m still not sold that Girardi’s a definite.
I could see Staal-McD-MDZ-McI and some combination of Kundratek, Pashnin, Valentenko, and a crazy FA signing.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions
KatieStrangNYI Looks like #Isles’ fourth deal of the day will be with Tampa Bay tough guy Zenon Konopka
.5 boogey’s maybe?
Probably $0.5Boogs, yeah.
It’s an answer to the Booger and Shelley moves, combined with Godard and Peters…..Isles had to do something just in case. So at least Sather forced the isles to spend an extra 800k or so unnecessarily.
Konopka did lead the league in PIMs last year.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Also,
Ivanans, Raitis (F) CGY 2 @ $1,200,000 $600,000/year
THAT is what Boogaard should be making considering Ivanans has zero skills as well.
Take a look at some of the you tube fights with Booger against Ivanans…..they are not in the same league. Not justifying Boogers salary but this is not a Drury or Redden like contract, we got the toughtest player in the league at 28yrs old, Nobody is running Hank if this guy is in the line up. Watching some of his fights……gives me a warm fuzzy feeling now. I’m not as upset at the signing and considering he is signed for 4 yrs…..you might see a trend in a year or two where enforcers are getting more. who knows……this signing, I think is a necessary evil. I would have been overjoyed if it was for 700K…but I would be overjoyed if Orr was still here and we didn’t have Booger or Brashear
Hey all
I’m back lol. Frolov to NY wouldn’t be awful, so long as it’s reasonable. So with the sather scale 6 years 140 million?
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he was asking 4.5-5 mil? where you getting that money from? not to mention anything long term is blocking young guys
it was a joke leetchie
lol. I would take a three year 4 mil per deal
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by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 4:03 PM EDT up reply actions
if you were joking ... hahaha
if you were not … I was making up my figures lol
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by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Frolov coming to NY, could also mean NJ too. The Devils do need scoring and there is no way they can afford Kovy. If they can pick up Frolov, not bad..depending on price. I should say, I’m just pulling this out of my ass, but it would make some sense.
by NTB on Jul 2, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions
Does make some sense. Typical Lou is to take the lesser version of someone. They’re so intent on making a push this year though, I don’t think they’re going to add enigmas.
Camp Tortorella - Where Vomit is a Mainstay
by George E. Ays on Jul 2, 2010 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Maybe Kovy would take a 6 year
7.5 mil per from NY?
lol
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by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
my sources say he wanted 10 years 100 million from LA
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by Joe Fortunato on Jul 2, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions
He should really fire his agent ASAP. There is no way he was getting that deal in a league other then the KHL
by NTB on Jul 2, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
I would be surprised too. Devils are more likely to wait. They do have 5 potential 20 goal scorers, and Parise’s 30-40.
by NTB on Jul 2, 2010 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions
Man, what’s he gonna get? Lou’s going to have to dig deep.
by NTB on Jul 2, 2010 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Wow. I didn’t realize that Girardi, Staal, Potter, Sauer were all unsigned. With Heikken gone, those were all the potential NHL Dmen in Hartford no?
by NTB on Jul 2, 2010 4:21 PM EDT up reply actions
Sauer, yes but not in Tort’s system. Potter is a 7 at best probably.
Kundratek, Valentenko, Klassen, Niemi should all be in Hart this year i believe.
I’m really going to be liking that defensive core waiting in the wings.
by Lunkwill Fook on Jul 2, 2010 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions
McDonagh isn’t near ready for a full time NHL job, is he?
by Lunkwill Fook on Jul 2, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Real_ESPNLeBrun Just got off phone with Lou Lamoriello. Asked him for an update on Kovalchuk. ``There’s nothing new," said the Devils GM.
my brother texted me "Isles close to Frolov"
than I asked him where he heard it, he said Eklund, all I could do was laugh
Prust story is up
move your open thread to there
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
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Get to the choppa
Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.
"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
I cannot believe that people are so upset over the Boogaard signing. I mean really. Some people need to get over it. To those who say Boogaard can’t skate, I can tell you he skates just as good if not a tad better than Shelley. People who have not seen Boogaard play more than one shift a period simply are mis-informed. You’ll see. You are the same people who slammed when we got Shelley in the first place. I just can’t understand why anyone would be so upset over this signing, I really cannot.
"Jim, that Durbano's been kicked out of every league he's ever been in" -- Bill "The Big Whistle" Chadwick (Rest In Peace) From the good ol' days of the NHL
by bigaudio on Jul 2, 2010 7:43 PM EDT reply actions
SHELLEY SUCKED
Whats wrong with you people? Shelly is 34yrs old and scores a whopping 2 goals a year. Boogard is 28 and the BEST enforcer in the NHL. Its what we need. GREAAT SIGNING
oh christ .
makes no sense at all shelly was a good player the last 5 games of the season. and now sather brings in boogard. well im not going to bash him because i never seen him fight or play. but one things for sure shelly does not back away from nobody and every flyer ranger game this year is going be nasty . hey glen whos next dan carcillo ?
lohaus #54
Once again
Wow, in what has been a very rare occasion I will have to agree with Joe. I as many know have tried to be optimistic with the Rangers Brass and love the “TUFF GUYS” couldn’t agree more. I love the IN YOUR FACE HOCKEY PLAYER, the guy who has a nasty ugly edge and is willing to drop the gloves in a moment, but in today’s NHL you have to have some skill and smarts. Jody Shelly has all of those elements, let’s not forget when acquired by the Rangers he easily built chemistry with Arty and Prust to become one of the BEST lines the Rangers had. Regardless of the age difference between Shelly and Boogaard, Shelly is the better player the Rangers needed. But no use crying over spilled milk what’s done is done. Boogaard will knock some guy’s out that’s for sure and get the Garden crowd on their feet from time to time but overall this signing is a big mistake on the intangible level of the game, something we lost with Shelly and will not get with Boogaard. In closing my biggest problem with this signing is the fact the Rangers brass has somehow refused to identify the biggest weakness in Rangers Hockey, The Defense sucks!!! Free agency is a great tool to fill holes in your lineup, this off season needed to address the defense! Sign who you want, move who you don’t and waive the bums and ready them for a long stay in Hartford, then use what cap space you have left to fill the holes on D, not sign a goon that won’t improve your team! I have finally been won over by the "Fire Sather Fans" on this move. Moving forward hopefully some of our prospects get an opportunity to play this season and the building core of the club will begin to unfold.
Pauly D
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