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Bloggers Deserve More Respect

Over the past year, while establishing myself as a mainstream blogger, the only thing that has turned me off about what I do is the disrespect Bloggers are shown. I have seen it every now and then and it got to me a little bit. I am usually not one to care what others think, because quite honestly if you are going to cover a team publicly you need to have thick skin and know how to take criticism. But something that happened yesterday over in Leafs Nation caught my attention, and most hockey bloggers' out there as well.

Pension Plan Puppets, a fabulous Toronto Maple Leafs blog (also hosted on SB Nation), recently had a friend of theirs translate an article from Czech to English, which revealed information about defenseman Tomas Kaberle. Now when I say translate, it does not mean that the individual ran it through Google's translation program. I mean that they actually sat there and word-by-word transformed a piece written in a foreign language so that all of their North American readers could comprehend what was being said. That sort of work takes hours to do, especially when it is a full article they are translating. Just ask Laurie Carr of Beyond the Blueshirts, because she does something similar to that for Ranger news that comes from overseas.

Anyway, three days ago the guys over at Pension Plan Puppets published the translation for their readers to see. Yesterday, three days later, the exact translation was found in an article written by the Toronto Sun, which is a media source/newspaper up in Canada. The story was then picked up by major sources such as TSN, who gave the Sun all of the credit thinking that they were the ones who originally translated it. Mind you that no credit was given to Pension Plan Puppets.

When PPP contested the Sun on their word-for-word plagiarism, the newspaper responded by saying things like "the source of the translation is irrelevant" and to "get over it". So not only did they go out and copy someone else's work, but they are blatantly admitting to doing so and telling the bloggers to "get over it". Unprofessional, unclassy, and pure disrespect. Those are the traits the Toronto Sun displayed in their pathetic actions.

Star-divide

The reason I am writing about it and making my readers aware is because it all goes back to the lack of respect Bloggers are shown. Okay, I understand that any random Joe can go out there and start a blog and claim themselves to be a "blogger" and curse on the site, and just display unprofessional qualities. Those kind of people I can understand not being shown respect by the mainstream media. But when an individual takes time out of their life to provide non-stop coverage of a team in a professional matter, work many hard hours, and take on the task as if it is a job, then I disagree with anyone who thinks they should be looked down upon just because they are not credentialed by the team that they cover.

Blogging is what I like to call new media, and it is gaining attention quickly. You see it right here, as Jim and Joe have built a large community of readers even though the guys behind it all are just another fan like the rest of you. Sure we have been credentialed for events before, but we are in no way affiliated with the Rangers or Madison Square Garden where we could go and sit in the press box for every game. But is that really what matters to readers? No, the opinion and the way in which it is presented matters to readers and that is why blogs like Blueshirt Banter and Pension Plan Puppets become a part of the media, even though newspaper writers and what not try to shoot that down and tell us were are nothing. If a site is getting over 1,000 hits a day they are doing something right and are not "nothing".

Now I cannot speak on behalf of all bloggers, but I take what I do seriously. I see this as a job and my goal is to give my audience of fans the best possible coverage of the New York Rangers possible, just as PPP does with the Leafs. And whether or not the "old media" will admit that or not, they know it, especially if they are going as far as to plagiarize blogger's work.

And just to clarify, not all newspaper writers are stuck up like the Toronto Sun. There are plenty of beat writers out there that understand what we do and praise us for it. And those are the people I have great respect for and those are the people I am more inclined to cite as a source when information about the team is released. So thank you to all of those who respect blogging and all of the hard work that goes into it.

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How . . .

How could a newspaper say ""the source of the translation is irrelevant?!"
The source of all information is everything if you want to print with authority; the paper must depend on source everyday. Is that the end of the story there? Unbelievable . . .

by Anders Griffen on Aug 22, 2010 10:50 AM EDT reply actions  

unfortunately

Okay, I understand that any random Joe can go out there and start a blog and claim themselves to be a “blogger” and curse on the site, and just display unprofessional qualities.

These types of blog sites ruin credibility for sites like this one, PPP and basically all of the sites on SBNation. I have been to many of them and they are all pretty legit. And newspapers like to discredit online sources because they are very threatened by online/blog sites because they are making newspapers obsolete

by Conway on Aug 22, 2010 11:41 AM EDT reply actions  

Unfortunately, it begins and ends with the team/organization and how they handle credentials and access to the team.
 
As Conway said, most newspapers won’t give any credit to blogs because they are infact in competition with them, so it will be up to the organization whether or not anything changes.

Having been on the flip side though, it is hard to pick and choose which sites to credential. How do you pick one site over another? Some of the issues I use to encounter was….Which site has the highest number of visitors? Are these numbers just self-reported or is there a neutral, third party source that’s providing the data. Do any of these bloggers actually have a degree in journalism?

Just some of the things to sift through and it’s not easy….

http://thehockeysuit.blogspot.com/

by The Suit on Aug 22, 2010 1:20 PM EDT reply actions  

As Conway said, most newspapers won’t give any credit to blogs because they are infact in competition with them, so it will be up to the organization whether or not anything changes.

Doesn’t stop the print media outlets from crediting each other if need be. Of course, if they don’t need to (like if they’re reporting what a guy said in English, which I think is “public domain”) then they won’t, but here they should, I think.

How do you pick one site over another? Some of the issues I use to encounter was….Which site has the highest number of visitors? Are these numbers just self-reported or is there a neutral, third party source that’s providing the data. Do any of these bloggers actually have a degree in journalism?

I understand your point, but PPP is the 2nd largest hockey blog on SBN and generates the highest comment volume, I’m fairly sure. It’s important and credible enough that a professional journalist checks it, at least.

If you want content, go to the Copper and Blue. If you want numbers, go to Behind the Net. If you want craziness, go to Pension Plan Puppets. If you want humor, go to Battle of California.If you want discussion, go to Broad Street Hockey. If you want bravery, go to Five For Howling.
If you want all of the above, go to Japers' Rink.
My blog (now featuring two Penguins fans as co-authors) and Twitter.

by red army line on Aug 22, 2010 2:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

well your situation is different

My last post was more about giving blogs respect, credenitals, access to the team, all things the organization is tasked with doing…and can be difficult

Giving people credit is a whole different issue, and I am totally with you…its a no brainer. You guys guys obviously took the time to translate something, they should have given you credit. If I were you guys I’d tell your fans to boycott them for a week or something.

http://thehockeysuit.blogspot.com/

by The Suit on Aug 22, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I agree, giving respect and credit are different issues.

by Hoggo on Aug 22, 2010 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Eric McErlain actually put together some excellent guidelines for credentialling bloggers.

For SBN we have sitemeter and a proprietary dashboard that tracks the stats. Ultimately, it’s up to the team to decide what kind of coverage they want and how they will go about that. If they want fanboys they can find blogs that will provide that.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 23, 2010 8:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Relax

Nobody cares

'Cause Brawndo's got electrolyes....

by Tim-May on Aug 22, 2010 1:55 PM EDT reply actions  

I disagree

I think that a ton of people care, especially everyone here.

Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers the only NHL team with three home arenas.

"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII

by Joe Fortunato on Aug 22, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pension Plan Puppets runs lots of translations. Happened again with an interview of Jonas Gustavsson in Swedish by sleza. Japers’ Rink also runs lots of translations (Russian and Swedish), and I’ve seen them on other blogs too. It’s immoral to just take the translation, regardless of whether the translation was legal or not in the first place.

If you want content, go to the Copper and Blue. If you want numbers, go to Behind the Net. If you want craziness, go to Pension Plan Puppets. If you want humor, go to Battle of California.If you want discussion, go to Broad Street Hockey. If you want bravery, go to Five For Howling.
If you want all of the above, go to Japers' Rink.
My blog (now featuring two Penguins fans as co-authors) and Twitter.

by red army line on Aug 22, 2010 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'm going to have to jump on this gravy train

I couldn’t fathom if every BB Radio interview was plucked by NY print media, claimed as their own work. There’s occasionally a very juicy bit of info in these interviews, ones that this site’s admins work very diligently to go after.
Thus, kudos to Yahoo for always (to my knowledge) citing blog sources for their NHL stories. Likewise sister SB Blog sites who rightfully credit back and forth.

No, I’m not a BB Fan Boy…nor know anyone on this site personally. (In fact, I live in Australia, for pete’s sake.) Still, intellectual property is IP, period. Plagiarism is never justified.

"...also I'll brush my teeth and remember to turn off the stars at night and put the hyena out." ERNEST HEMINGWAY

by pslieber on Aug 22, 2010 7:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re wrong, people do care. If you are reading a supposedly credible beat reporter, you have a right to know if you are reading original material

Blueshirt Banter: Covering the New York Rangers

Big Blue View: Unofficial New York Giants blog

by Jim Schmiedeberg on Aug 22, 2010 2:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whether any of us care or not doesn't matter...

Do we care? Maybe a little… Will they lose even 1 reader because of it, I doubt it.

by NYdemo on Aug 22, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Sucks this time of year...

when this is all we have to talk about.

by NYdemo on Aug 22, 2010 7:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

yea, really not a huge deal to many readers, cant wait to talk about legit hockey games. Ranger season is starting soon

by Ahmad Bradshaw on Aug 22, 2010 11:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

Agree 100%

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 23, 2010 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, is that BSB, for example, would not get the extra traffic from linking by reports by TSN, Sportsnet, etc.

If you want content, go to the Copper and Blue. If you want numbers, go to Behind the Net. If you want craziness, go to Pension Plan Puppets. If you want humor, go to Battle of California.If you want discussion, go to Broad Street Hockey. If you want bravery, go to Five For Howling.
If you want all of the above, go to Japers' Rink.
My blog and Twitter.

by red army line on Aug 23, 2010 5:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

The beauty is that if you don’t care you can just skip the entire post.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 23, 2010 8:26 PM EDT up reply actions  

Bloggers don’t get a lot of respect because most of them are merely commenting on news items produced by major news sources (league info, other sportswriters, team publicity announcements, etc.). Few of them are out there establishing valid reasons for why they should exist; most indulge in unrealistic speculation without offering new analysis or other ways of viewing the sports they purport to cover. For every site like Gabe Desjardins’ Behind the Net, there are 50 blogs like Eklund or Two Line Pass that simply deal in bullshit out there. Even mediocre blogs like Puck Daddy offer more balance than the slew of team-oriented blogs, which are usually written by intelligent homer fans whose perceptions are always colored by the fact that they love their team and hate most of the other teams in the league. To quote the movie Miller’s Crossing—it’s a question of ethics, and the nature of sportswriting in the mainstream press can make a more convincing case for maintaining analytical distance from the teams they cover than your average blog or blogger because of that.

In the world of hockey coverage there are many blogs that legitimately rival mainstream press sportswriters in terms of their ability to write and think about the game of hockey. But indulging in the type of campaign that PPP did after catching somebody in the act of plagiarizing them comes off as childish rather than ethical in its appearance. Of course the Toronto Sun was in the wrong here, but much of what bloggers do is media-derived criticism. They need to break more news themselves and stop using major media sources as a jumping-off point for their own ideas and passing that off as journalism, and perhaps then they will receive the respect that they are due.

Remember, however, that the piles of poorly-written blogs out there on the internet do more damage to the profession of blogger than plagiarism does…..

Prole art threat.

by greifi griffie on Aug 22, 2010 2:55 PM EDT reply actions  

At the end of the day, doing a translation is an analysis of words, just as breaking down advanced stats is an analysis of numbers, therefore insights like this should be sourced regardless of who the author is, legit blog or not…

http://thehockeysuit.blogspot.com/

by The Suit on Aug 22, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nowhere am I advocating plagiarism, or publishing without acknowledging sources…but I am advocating that bloggers would gain more respect from mainstream media if they spent less time commenting upon it. Perhaps mainstream media would feel less entitled to steal from blogs if blogs spent less time obsessing over the mainstream media, that was my point.

Prole art threat.

by greifi griffie on Aug 22, 2010 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I don’t know, I see your point to an extent. For me, I think mainstream media sometimes should have a target on their backs just as much as the team. To me it doesn’t matter if its Jim Dolan, Glen Sather, Wade Redde, or Larry Brooks.

If you do something, say something, or write something that deserves to be called out then so be it. Blogs to me keep everyone in check.

http://thehockeysuit.blogspot.com/

by The Suit on Aug 23, 2010 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions  

Blame the victim

Gotcha.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 23, 2010 8:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

If you think that beat writers are maintaining analytical distance from the teams they cover then you must have your head in the sand. Every writer has their own biases and offer up as much pablum as any shitty blog you can bring up.

Of course the Toronto Sun was in the wrong here, but much of what bloggers do is media-derived criticism. They need to break more news themselves and stop using major media sources as a jumping-off point for their own ideas and passing that off as journalism, and perhaps then they will receive the respect that they are due.

Couple of things here: It’s funny that trying to get someone to do the right thing is termed as childish. You’re not alone in raising that idea and it really makes me laugh. How we deal with it is secondary to the act of plagiarism.

And yes, a good portion of blog writing is commenting on the coverage of the team. You also seem to be falling into the league and media’s misguided belief that all bloggers aspire to be journalists. I have a real job. I write the blog because I like the Leafs a lot. Not sure why you’d suggest not using media sources as a jumping off point when they do that themselves within their own coverage. As for breaking news, we’ve broken news a handful of times but it’s not why we’re blogging.

Remember, however, that the piles of poorly-written blogs out there on the internet do more damage to the profession of blogger than plagiarism does…..

Funny that you don’t seem to hold the traditional media to the same standard.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 23, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Actually I don’t read the traditional media at all anymore since they uncritically welcomed the beginning of the second Gulf War in 2003….but thanks for assuming though….

I know you’re still furious about the Sun’s plagiarism, so perhaps you’re not seeing what I’m saying here—media corporations are riddled with lazy writers whose sense of entitlement extends to stealing news items from various blogs. I’m hypothesizing here that since even a good blog like yours expends maybe 50% of its virtual ink on media coverage or passing links around through posts that this behavior should not come as a surprise to you.

Nowhere in my posts did I offer a justification for the actions of the Sun; instead I chided the PPP blog for its pile-on tactics in attempting to bring the plagiarism issue to light. Advising your readers to send bitchy emails in a mass mailing seems childish to me; sorry if that rankles you, but it does. A form letter would’ve accomplished the same job without adding the tremendous levels of vitriol that the average internet jockey can summon up, and it would’ve backed up your claims to a higher ground of ethical behavior in this issue. Once hate and anger come into the issue—regardless of how justified their appearance may be—a corporation will ignore what is being said and try to paint itself as a victim of harassment.

If blogging is going to depend on linking to articles from mainstream media sources, I think it would be naive to assume that plagiarism will not occur—it’s the media corporations’ version of taking their pound of flesh.

Prole art threat.

by greifi griffie on Aug 24, 2010 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions  

print media

I don’t claim to know anything about the readership of the Toronto Sun specifically, but take solace in the fact that, generally speaking, print media is on the decline.

by jigblahdah on Aug 22, 2010 7:02 PM EDT reply actions  

but take solace in the fact that, generally speaking, print media is on the decline

Actually, this is a very bad thing in general. Newspapers still provide the vast amount of coverage for issues. Bloggers are fine and all, but the vast majority do not have the resources to track down stories, interview people, etc. Maybe this matters more for non-sports stories, but the declining presence of newsroom across the country is a great loss.

by NTB on Aug 22, 2010 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just online you can read something when it’s still current. In a paper the event could be a day old.

If you want content, go to the Copper and Blue. If you want numbers, go to Behind the Net. If you want craziness, go to Pension Plan Puppets. If you want humor, go to Battle of California.If you want discussion, go to Broad Street Hockey. If you want bravery, go to Five For Howling.
If you want all of the above, go to Japers' Rink.
My blog and Twitter.

by red army line on Aug 23, 2010 5:03 AM EDT up reply actions  

There are certainly positives and negatives. Online news sources are typically more current but they are certainly not held to the same level of accountability that a traditional newspaper has been. The fact is that an increasing number of people just don’t want to pay for news any more.

by jigblahdah on Aug 23, 2010 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

I’d question, based on James Wallace’s responses to e-mails, whether there IS any more accountability at the Toronto Sun.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 23, 2010 8:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, the sports page is the one place where rumor is redefined as news. One would expect the standards to be lower; they shouldn’t be, but that just seems to be reality. I wish that writers would err on the side of citing sources but clearly thats not the case.

by jigblahdah on Aug 24, 2010 9:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

I blame TSN more

Well I’m a firm believer in giving credit where credit is due. That’s why I think there should be some sort of unity among all of the SB Nation Blog sites to gang up and make a ruckus about this. Even if this one goes unnoticed, they will think twice next time they try and pull that type of trash. It kind of makes me sick. All they had to do was say was picked up from Toronto Sun by way of SBNation.com or something to that effect. If TSN actually picked it up they should be more cognoscente of where they get their information from.

by louielounz1 on Aug 22, 2010 8:41 PM EDT reply actions  

Theft of Intellectual Property is a Major Deal, but...

First let me state that I don’t think any intellectual property should ever be used without proper citation. I hail from a scientific background and similar actions in that context are dealt with quite promptly and severely.

However, calling the Toronto Suns’ actions pathetic and characterizing the organization as “Unprofessional, unclassy, and pure disrespect [sic]” is going much too far.

On August 12th, you yourself posted an article concerning Marc Staal’s value. In it you said “First and foremost, last season he was statistically the best defensive defensemen in the National Hockey League – that is special in itself.” This is an uncited use of ideas from an article from journalist James Mirtle of The Globe and Mail.

I’m sure there are more such instances to be found, but one example is enough.

As basement mothers often say, “those who live in glass houses, should not throw stones.” And you are indeed being incredibly hypocritical.

Furthermore, your article is rife with grammatical errors and awkward diction. If you are going to attack a journalistic body on the main page of this site, you should try to at least match their standards for writing. Perhaps if you are writing angrily and hastily, take a step back before publishing or find a proofreader.

by dar9898 on Aug 23, 2010 1:07 PM EDT reply actions  

"First and foremost, last season he was statistically the best defensive defensemen in the National Hockey League – that is special in itself." This is an uncited use of ideas from an article from journalist James Mirtle of The Globe and Mail.

Maybe, but I’d say it falls more under common knowledge. I mean, a quick look at behindthenet.ca shows Staal had a QualComp over .300 and a GAON/60 under 2.00, which is absolutely outstanding.

If you want content, go to the Copper and Blue. If you want numbers, go to Behind the Net. If you want craziness, go to Pension Plan Puppets. If you want humor, go to Battle of California.If you want discussion, go to Broad Street Hockey. If you want bravery, go to Five For Howling.
If you want all of the above, go to Japers' Rink.
My blog and Twitter.

by red army line on Aug 23, 2010 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well sure it falls under common knowledge for those who synthesize advanced stats or consider them with regularity. But the specific source of the idea is illuminated @ 8:03 and 8:04 here: http://www.rangerstribune.com/2010/08/rangers-tribune-off-season-weekly-chat_12.html

And yes those QC and GAON/60 are exemplary

by dar9898 on Aug 23, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hilarious

If you’re going to post a comment like that, try making sure that you’re grammar is spotless.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 23, 2010 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Easy their chieftain

I agree on principle that the Sun should be accountable for their writers’ and editors’ actions. I do not agree with the hypocrisy and name slinging.

And my grammar, minus a missing comma or two is passable. If I were writing stories for the front page of a site, you can bet they would be proofread.

Your “you’re” isn’t funny.

by dar9898 on Aug 23, 2010 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions  

You were trying to deflect from the issue by trying to focus on how Nick wrote his piece rather than the substance of the post.

Perhaps it was untintentional but the crux of your post was “you’re not a pro so don’t comment.” That’s like suggesting that no one here can criticize Glen Sather because they’ve never been NHL GMs.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 23, 2010 9:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

No the crux of my post is that writers here usurp ideas all the time. If we are to hold the Sun to any standards, we should first look toward ourselves.

by dar9898 on Aug 23, 2010 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

Using someone’s post as a jumping off point for discussion is very different from what happened.

Pension Plan Puppets: A Toronto Maple Leafs blog and a group therapy session.
Like reading thoughts confined to 140 characters? I'm on Twitter too.

by PPP on Aug 23, 2010 10:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

No it is not always different. And your belief that it is automatically different exemplifies part of the problem

May I point you towards a dictionary so that you may learn the full definitions of plagiarism and citation? Would it be any better if a blog had plagiarized the translation? No.
But the outrage would have been muted, the calls for war and insults relegated to the hypothetical back pages.

by dar9898 on Aug 25, 2010 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

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