Why The New York Rangers Won't Be Making A Trade For A Veteran Defenseman
by Joe Fortunato on Dec 19, 2011 6:00 AM EST
in New York Rangers Analysis
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The New York Rangers have a bigger defensive problem today then they did two days ago. Steve Eminger, who separated his shoulder in the Rangers' 3-2 victory over the Phoenix Coyotes Saturday night, was replaced Sunday night by Stu Bickel.
Before anyone gets ahead of themselves, the Rangers did not have the cap space to bring up Tim Erixon, which is why Bickle was selected.
And while this might seem like a perfect scenario to trade for a veteran defenseman, there are multiple reasons why it is not. It's important to note here that the holiday roster freeze started this morning, and will be in effect until December 27th. That means no players can be traded for moved -- although you can call players up from the AHL -- during that time span.
Join me after the jump for more.
There's another reason why it doesn't make much sense for the Rangers to trade for a veteran defenseman. When healthy, the Rangers have four top-defenseman in Marc Staal, Dan Girardi, Ryan McDonagh and Michael Sauer. Then there's Michael Del Zotto who is getting into top-defenseman form of late. And then there's a mixture of Steve Eminger, Jeff Woywitka and Anton Stralman who make up the final group of serviceable defenseman, but not guys you want to lean on for heavy minutes.
Along with the bottom three there is Tim Erixon who is largely expected to see some more NHL time this year, and should be a real competition for a spot on next year's roster. Erixon is the most NHL ready of the Rangers farm system in Connecticut, and would have been called up for Eminger's injury had it not have been for cap restrictions.
What if Glen Sather did make a move for a veteran defenseman? Say he trades a few of the organization's chips for a veteran defenseman who can fit in right away. While neither Staal nor Sauer are expected back immediately, the consensus is that both should see a pretty good amount of games this season. Especially Sauer, who should come back before Staal.
If that's the case, then Sather has paid another team for a veteran defenseman who is going to play third-pairing minutes when everyone is healthy. And that doesn't even take into account next year, when players like Erixon, Dylan McIlrath and Pavel Valentenko are gunning for a roster spot. What then?
Unless Sather knows he can get an all-star defenseman who will be on the blue line for years to come -- say a Shea Weber -- then there's no reason to make a move. And as far as I'm concerned, Weber isn't going to be on the trading block anytime soon.
The Rangers might not have the defensive pieces in place right now, but they do have the pieces within the organization. I just don't see the benefit of making a panic move right now, and overpaying for a veteran, when Staal and Sauer are expected back.
Thoughts guys?
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I agree Joe. But what I don’t understand is if Torts is not going to play Avery then why not send him down to save $$ so he can bring up Erixon? Though I’m not upset that Bickel is here (forgot about him) as he played well early in the season. I said exactly what you’re saying yesterday about not making a trade unless it’s for Weber or Suter and you won’t know their availability, either way, until around the trade deadline. At the deadline I would also take a crack at Johnny Boychuk if he is available from the Bees but I doubt the Bees trade with the Rangers. Boychuk has a booming shot and plays aggressive D. he’s a FA after this year and would get the PP time on the Rangers he doesn’t get with the Bees with Chara, Corvo, and Seidenberg there.
Someone explained it was timing issue.
Eminger got hurt on Sat night and team didnt have time to allow EC/Avery to pass thru waivers due to roster freeze.
Could only bring up a guy and were limited by cap room. So now we get Stu Pickle playing in three key division games this week.
Hows that for a hot shit sandwich the week of Christmas?
by Gabby the Gutless Sniper on Dec 19, 2011 8:31 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
This week it was a timing issue
once Eminger got injured on Saturday Avery would have had to clear waivers BEFORE 12:01 a.m. Monday morning, which wouldn’t have happened. So Stu Bickle was the only option.
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by Joe Fortunato on Dec 19, 2011 8:39 AM EST up reply actions
“Upped” for subtle Rugrats mention.
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by NYRBlue on Dec 19, 2011 2:09 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Remember when everyone thought Staal would be back in Nov..
Well its now late Dec. To assume he and/or Sauer make a return before Feb is dillusional.
The only way a trade doesnt happen is if the offense picks up or D doesnt continue its downward slide (which is really about getting points). If they can stay around 6 points out of every 10 and stay in playoff position they can wait for calvary.
If everything goes to hell and they get into a prolonged losing streak Slats will pull trigger.
by Gabby the Gutless Sniper on Dec 19, 2011 8:27 AM EST via mobile reply actions
How did I know I’d find the prophet here? Still waiting for that trade btw ;)
by teknics on Dec 19, 2011 8:31 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
It will happen next week..
After Girardi breaks his foot blocking a shot tomorrow night against Devils.
Remember..I don’t create the future, I just relay my visions.
by Gabby the Gutless Sniper on Dec 19, 2011 8:33 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Girardi can still log 20-25 mins on one foot. like I said, wrap Girardi in bubble wrap if you have to.
and knock on wood when you relay these visions. some of us are superstitious, code for OCD.
by truebluesince75 on Dec 19, 2011 8:41 AM EST up reply actions
don’t you put that evil on me ricky bobby! dont you put that on us!
oh man i think i would cry if girardi got hurt
GET RIPPED
"We'll Win Tonight" - The Captain
"Let's go eat a &€% %¥#$ snack" - Rex
If Girardi got hurt
the Rangers wouldn’t have a choice, they would have to make a trade.
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by Joe Fortunato on Dec 19, 2011 9:03 AM EST up reply actions
and get fleeced in the process
I’d rather they call the season a loss and do the best the can. I hate bargaining the future.
by truebluesince75 on Dec 19, 2011 9:10 AM EST up reply actions
I don't know how I would feel about the Rangers
calling a team that is 18-8 while missing their top defenseman for the entire year and their fourth best for a good chunk of the year a lost season and not try to salvage it.
This isn’t the “oh they might sneak into the playoffs” Rangers. Right now we’re the “we should contend for the division title” Rangers.
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"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
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by Joe Fortunato on Dec 19, 2011 9:24 AM EST up reply actions
If Lundqvist and Biron dip at all, it’s going to be a ‘sneak into the playoffs’ Rangers team.
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by George E. Ays on Dec 19, 2011 9:31 AM EST up reply actions
true but it would depend on the duration of the loses. if we know Staal, Sauer, and Girardi we down for the long haul, a stop gap is not going to win a Cup.
It cant be based on the record at the time of the injuries, which included those key guys; there were need to be speculation on how well they could do without those guys.
just my thoughts. sort of reminds me of when Cally went down last year. I saw them going a round, maybe two, but without Cally, they lost a lot of heart and leadership. of course, it was too late for trades at that point.
so it all depends.
but speculating on Girardi (or any key player for that matter) going down is a waste of energy. Injuries happen and you cant wait with baited breath until they do.
by truebluesince75 on Dec 19, 2011 9:48 AM EST up reply actions
Lets be realistic here – Staal is pretty much gone for the season – maybe longer. By all indications, his concussion was probably as severe as Crosbys and we see how that worked out for Sid a year later. Some players are more prone to concussions and once you suffer one, its almost guaranteed that you will suffer more. There are plenty of great retired NHL players, Lindros, LaFontaine, etc. that had to give up the game as well as dozens of other players that suffered similar fates.
Sauer is probably in the same boat as Staal right now and his career unfortunately also hangs in the balance as well. When a player suffers a concussion and does not improve dramatically in the first few weeks, it is often a very bad sign. Its sad but never the less 100% true as born out by history.
The loss of Eminger, in my opinion may have sealed Dubinsky’s fate with the Rangers. I expect that after the holidays when the trade freeze gets lifted, Sather will be fielding offers for cheap veteran defensemen and Dubinsky will be the bait. This makes sense on several levels. First off, it allows movemant of Dubi’s 4+ million contract which frees up salary space. Second, Dubi has not been playing well and with the return of Rupp, eventually Wolski and Avery standing by that would mean there is a logjam of forwards – unless you send down Hagelin and Mitchell which better not happen
Yeah, I guess all the Rangers did say was Staal would be ready for start of the regular season, they just didn’t say which one.
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by Jim Schmiedeberg on Dec 19, 2011 10:11 AM EST up reply actions
Given the comments today from the beats re: Dubinsky, it sure seems like the organization is not nearly as down on his play as the fan base. Thankfully.
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by George E. Ays on Dec 19, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
damn
I finally break down and buy a jersey with a player on it and he could be gone.
I should have bought a Leetch, Graves, or Richter jersey back in the 90s instead of my noncommittal 90s jersey.
it would be a shame. I love Dubi. I love the productive Dubi more, but the pornstache was epic. Plus I invested in these guys from day 1 so its a bigger let down when they leave.
by truebluesince75 on Dec 19, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
So you’re trading someone that has had a miserable 30 or so game stretch (although not as bad as people have made it out to be) that completely undoes a few straight years of steady growth and improvement?
And every GM knows that Sather is desperate for a solid (top 4) D-man. It wouldn’t just be Dubinsky involved in the trade but probably highly valuable current and/or future pieces.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Dec 19, 2011 10:18 AM EST up reply actions
We are making a lot of assumptions on Staal’s condition that do not seem to mesh with info we have been getting this week. This morning’s practice:
Katie Strang @KatieStrangESPN
#NYR Another step forward for D Marc Staal: wearing regular red jersey today for practice, ramping up participation with team
Wish we had any info on Sauer, though.
i think youre way out there in assuming that these guys concussions are all career threateneing. im not looking to downplay them but just because a few guys have had some serious problems of late, doesnt mean you can lop ever guy that gets a bump on the head into the same boat. concussions are “unpredicatable”. i have faith sauer and Stall will both be back in blue before season end. theyve handled the injusries the right way and will be rewarded. saying he is done for the season isnt realistic, its panicy and youre using it to justify the potential knee jerk reaction of a trade
Not at all. If either or both come back question will be how long will they last? Both play a very physical style of defense. Every game they play there are going to be big hits thrown. (and Ranger fans on edge) Fast forwards that suffer concussions can often use their speed to avoid big hits but eventually it catches up with them. DMen? How ling will they last? As far as Dubinsky being traded, I think it is a foregone conclusion. Not a Torts favorite, signed a big contract and not producing … three (possibly four) dmen hurt is not a knee jerk reaction … its reality
please. the only way stall would better is if he DID play a physical game. he doesnt. we have players in the farm that will make a great d in the future. im not comfortable moving any of them for a rental dman. and dubinksky is not expendable no matter what everyone here wants to think. maybe for bobby ryan tho haha
Still think Staal before Feb is reasonable. At this point he hasn’t had a set back and keeps vamping up his workouts, so provided there are no setbacks (a 50/50 chance essentially) conditioning is the only thing standing in his way; which won’t take till February.
by Zuppa Di Pesce on Dec 19, 2011 1:20 PM EST up reply actions
To me the D has not really been the issue. When the team plays well defensively and plays “their game” the D men are not an issue. It’s more an issue on how they play as a team than the specific D men they have back there. Of course you always want your best but having the King (and Biron) makes up for a lot of flaws. This team can contend this year IMO.
I think the D has been an issue though, at least when considering how we move the puck out of our zone and down the ice. We are very slow transitionally, imo, and that starts with the D. We are stopped in the neutral zone too often, and that because by the time our D gets the puck and moves it up ice, the other team has already had time to set up.
Agreed. As George has pointed out, the play of the goalies has masked the Rangers problems in the puck possession aspect of the game. Nobody in Hartford is realistically going to improve that situation, even Erixon.
Just gotta hope the goalies can hold the fort and they capitalize on their scoring chances. Goals with 0.1 seconds left don’t hurt either.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Dec 19, 2011 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
don’t disagree. the movement of the puck out of the zone has been an issue for a while as evidenced by our horrible PP. at some point the injuries will become a real problem but so far they have held up well IMO.
by Richter1994 on Dec 19, 2011 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
I’d say the attack zone movement is the killer for the PP. Especially the 5 on 3s. Both wingers camp out in the same spot on either side of the net and don’t move. Maybe Cally can occasionally pick off some bad angle goals, but at least get some rotation up and down the side boards to create a different point of attack. It’s like once the 3 PK guys set up shot to protect the net/slot the Rangers get paralyzed and don’t try anything to break them up or at least keep them moving to exploit passing seams.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Dec 19, 2011 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
oh their 5 on 3 is not even a professional one. how can they expect to score when the point men are so close to the face off circles? the opponent stands in a triangle and doesn’t move because they don’t have to. is anyone (coach) watching this? time for a 3rd coach to coach the PP.
by Richter1994 on Dec 19, 2011 12:02 PM EST up reply actions
I would not make any moves at all
I like this team the way it is. they have good chemistry so far, something that has been lacking for many years. The D i feel are doing OK, better than I expected with Staal and Sauer out. Christensen can go, but I hate to see Avery leave.
Avery is gone at the end of the year if not sooner. He’ll be lucky to be playing in the NHL next year by most indications, as in the 4 times he’s been made available on waivers+re-entry waivers and only one team has claimed him, the Rangers.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Dec 19, 2011 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
I’m here if you need me.
Signed,
Paul Mara
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by Jim Schmiedeberg on Dec 19, 2011 10:01 AM EST reply actions
No thanks Paul but have a good Holiday Season.
by Richter1994 on Dec 19, 2011 10:15 AM EST up reply actions
How bout me? Sorry by my wife, she meant no disrespect.
Signed
Alexei Semenov
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by Jim Schmiedeberg on Dec 19, 2011 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Jim, have a very good and healthy Holiday Season, to you and your family. (Semenov? lol).
by Richter1994 on Dec 19, 2011 11:07 AM EST up reply actions
No thanks
And tell Marek Malik we don’t need another shootout specialist we have Erik Christensen (I think…we always seem to lose him for some reason)
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by Kevin Power on Dec 19, 2011 11:30 AM EST via iPhone app up reply actions
If they play .500 the rest of the year
They finish with 92 points. And even with major D men missing I don’t think this team will play .500 hockey. So don’t worry. We don’t need a trade. Bickel was pretty damn good in preseason, let’s see what he can do.
'Cause Brawndo's got electrolyes....
Bickel was horrendoys against speed.
He makes Girardi look like Grabner. He’s the 4th best Dman for an AHL team.
Wait until he’s out there against any of the Parise, Kovalchuk and Tavares of the world. It will be ugly.
by Gabby the Gutless Sniper on Dec 19, 2011 10:30 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Here’s to hoping they can at least control the matchups in the Isles and Flyers games since they’ll be at home.
Hopefully Lundqvist does what he usually does against the Devils and Deboer is “smart” enough to start Brodeur instead of Hedberg.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Dec 19, 2011 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
Its a waiting game...
If Hank and Biron keep it up and scoring remains top 1/2 in the league they may be able to ride it out.
Sure would help if the PP was better..but i digress.
by Gabby the Gutless Sniper on Dec 19, 2011 10:33 AM EST via mobile reply actions
PP better?
Don’t you think your asking for wayyyyyyyy to much there?
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by RichieToGabbySCORE on Dec 19, 2011 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
Staal return
Hey all, first post but I have been visiting for a long time. I know we all eagerly anticipate the return of Staal, but what if he is one hit away from going out injured again. Seems like these concussed players are on a very short leash when they return.
Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity
distinct possibility
look at Crosby. many players cant take the typical hits indicative of the NHL after they suffer a concussion. only time will tell.
by truebluesince75 on Dec 19, 2011 11:12 AM EST up reply actions
Let's go back to the thought of a trade.........how do we target?
Who do we offer?
In a perfect senario Sather fleeces the Preds for Weber……what would we have to give up for that and make cap room? I still want to see Bobby Ryan on Broadway.
Absolute Worst Ranger Fan!!!!!!....yet incredibly realistic and usually correct.
Bobby Ryan trade talk might be dormant right now
but it’s not dead
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"We can trade Lisin for a gun, then hold it to Drury’s head and make him waive the no-movement clause" - XLII
"Tortorelli sounds like a kind of pasta… an unforgiving, stubborn, chewy, flavorless pasta that demands ‘jam’ from other pastas." - Dig Deep
by Joe Fortunato on Dec 19, 2011 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
they keep losing then it will be re-activated.
by Richter1994 on Dec 19, 2011 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
No trade is ever “dead” in the NHL
"Don't look now, but there's one too many people in this room and I think it's you." Groucho Marx
In Prust We Trust
"Kovalev would work with Tortorella like a kitty would work in a microwave.
A lot of smoke and desperate clawing at the door. It wouldn’t work. It would just be a big, hot mess." -Dig Deep
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by Kevin Power on Dec 19, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
EC, Wolski, Marcel Hossa for Ryan and Perry
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Dec 19, 2011 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
I say Weber/Suter when the Preds are out of it by the trade deadline.
by Richter1994 on Dec 19, 2011 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
I don’t want any part of that. There is going to be a big auction with 5-6 teams and someone is going to pay through the nose. I do not want to give up even one of the parts it would require., much less 3-4.
it depends on who can fit them in cap-wise and have the assets to get them. I have always thought Weber would go to the Wings to replace Lidstrom.
by Richter1994 on Dec 19, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
And on his way out say “If you can’t beat ’em, join ’em”.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Dec 19, 2011 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
They’ve been good, but they’ve been blessed with a lot of fortunate luck. Lidstrom, the best defenseman of his generation has never missed more than 5 or 6 games in a season. They’ve hit home runs with some extremely late round picks and they’ve gotten a lot of mileage out of some less than stellar goalies.
But they’ve been stable and competent for so long that it’s tough to remember they were chronic underachievers pre-Bowman and the same questions that get asked of guys like Joe Thornton and Ovechkin were asked of Yzerman until he finally won.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Dec 19, 2011 1:24 PM EST up reply actions
they have excellent scouting which the Rangers did not have for a long time. I think they have it now with Gordie Clark in charge. Hedberg is doing a good job in Europe. Scouting and assessing talent is what builds contenders for years which is why the Rangers always had to buy other teams’ players for years. I think we have a nice pipeline going now. But would it not have been nice to pick Giroux over Sangs? ahhh, yeah, lol.
I’d go more with the development of the players once they’ve drafted them. The Rangers swung and missed at a lot of high end draft picks, particularly in the 1st round. Statistically guys taken in the first 3 rounds have the best shot at making it to the NHL let alone becoming stars. The Wings have either had no 1st rounders or late 1st rounders for so long.
In fact in the last Detroit 1st round choice to even play 100 games in the NHL is Kronwall and he was drafted in 2000. Post-2005 their prospect advancement rate is actually very poor whereas the Rangers have done pretty well.
But when when they get guys like Datsyuk and Zetterberg in the 6th and 7th rounds of the draft, that’s a combination of scouting/development but also luck.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Dec 19, 2011 1:50 PM EST up reply actions
no question luck is a big part of it. but for approx 20 years the Rangers’ first rounders were busts going back to Neil Smith. what are the odds of that happening? Of course we don’t know what would have happened to Cherapanov (RIP). He looked like an elite talent (Jagr said so after playing with him in Russia).
Update: 11:55AM: Andrew Gross tweets that the lines at practice are:
The GAS Line
Brandon Dubinsky, Brad Richards, Ryan Callahan
Ruslan Fedotenko, Mike Rupp, Brandon Prust
Carl Hagelin, Brian Boyle, John Mitchell
The team tweets that Sean Avery is skating on a "fifth" line with Wojtek Wolski and Erik Christensen.
Well that takes care of the “why EC over Avery?” conversation for today and tomorrow.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Dec 19, 2011 12:21 PM EST up reply actions
so he’s on a line by himself? Man the coach must hate that guy
"Don't look now, but there's one too many people in this room and I think it's you." Groucho Marx
In Prust We Trust
"Kovalev would work with Tortorella like a kitty would work in a microwave.
A lot of smoke and desperate clawing at the door. It wouldn’t work. It would just be a big, hot mess." -Dig Deep
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by Kevin Power on Dec 19, 2011 12:25 PM EST up reply actions
Are yu serious? No avery for the 24/7 game against the devils. Wow what a waste. Would love to see aves rip marty apart on the ice
by polishBLUE on Dec 19, 2011 12:51 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
When I posted about this yesterday
I advocated for the Rangers to make a move to sure up the defense. As someone pointed out above, while we are expecting Marc Staal and Michael Sauer back, we should not assume their health, and with the recent concussion patterns, almost prepare for the worst. That being said, we do have many top-tier defensemen on our roster, especially like Joe said if you consider Michael Del Zotto our “fifth” defenseman. And also, just like Joe pointed out, on the horizon is Erixon, who we have no reason not to believe isn’t developing similarly to how Del Zotto did when he got sent down. Behind Tim Erixon is Pavel Valetenko and Dylan McIlrath.
Here is my point though. Yes those players are on the horizon. Yes the future of our defense looks strong. And yes, it is quite possible that the current group of players we have can sure the load during this injury stretch, and come February maybe we have that healthy group of defensemen everyone is salivating over. My point, is that there are a number of forwards who are probably NOT in our future plans, especially considering the pieces we have in our system, like Chris Kreider, and like Christian Thomas. While I still hold that no team is going to consider Sean Avery a trade asset, I look at guys like Erik Christensen, Wojtek Wolski, and then maybe a John Mitchell as players that could get us a good defenseman in return. I think everyone can agree that those players I just mentioned (with the exception of Mitchell) are not going to factor into our future plans.
EC was a waiver wire pick up, doubtful he gets anything in return except a late draft pick.
Mitchell was acquired for like a 6th round pick, I’m not sure GMs are going to be fooled by a 10 or so game sample size of playing decently in a limited role to give up a reliable NHL caliber D.
Wolski needs to get healthy first and then prove he can be reasonably productive for his cap hit.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Dec 19, 2011 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
Defense Updates:
First just let me point out that I cannot say enough good things about Rangers coverage on www.SNYRangersblog.com , Adam does a great job there and you all should read and refresh his blog every hour! Some updates via there:
Katie Strang @KatieStrangESPN
#NYR Staal seemed very encouraged with how things were going. Said he thinks he could be cleared for contact within next few days
and
The Rangers have called up Tim Erixon on an emergency basis in the case that Jeff Woywitka will not be able to play tomorrow.
Stu Bickel will play for the injured Steve Eminger tomorrow night.
I will pee my pants if Staal is cleared for contact soon and on the road back to the lineup within a month.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Dec 19, 2011 1:26 PM EST up reply actions
you'll pee them worse if he comes back too soon and winds up like crosby
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Depends
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by BleedsRangerBlue on Dec 19, 2011 3:31 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
Well, here is the counundrum
I agree with Joe with his overall assessment. As he pointed out, we can’t make a move until after Christmas. But, our need is here and now. We just got good news about Staal and bad news about Eminger, but when everybody returns, I’m ok with our team defense overall.
Remember last year, we again needed an offensive D and picked up McCabe, who neither good nor bad, definitely didn’t push us into the playoffs, and wasn’t ultimately renewed. But this year, the Rangers are in much better shape in the standings and I don’t necessarily wanted to make any moves unless it is a true once-in-a-lifetime bargain or is done with spare parts.
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