Rangers Analysis: The Defensemen Rumors
Editors Note: Kaberle came off the market today, to the Bruins for Joe Colborne, Boston's 1st rounder, and a conditional pick. Use this thread to discuss that trade as well.
Rumors are abound stating GM Glen Sather is looking to upgrade the back end of the defense. There have been many names linked to the New York Rangers, most recently Filip Kuba. With so many players, I thought it would be good idea to line them up side by side and get a better feel for how they are performing this year. Thanks to the venerable, terrifying Gabe Desjardins and his behindthenet.ca site, findind the data to do so is snap.
We'll start with their usage at 5v5. For comparison, I've included the 3 Rangers defenseman who could be replaced.
| NAME | TEAM | TOI% | TOI Rank | CORSI Rel QoC | Qoc Rank | CORSI Rel QoT | QoT Rank | Ozone% | Ozone Rank |
| BRYAN MCCABE | FLA | 33.52% | 5 of 7 | -0.287 | 7 of 7 | 0.982 | 1 of 7 | 56.2% | 1 of 6 |
| JONI PITKANEN | CAR | 40.53% | 1 of 6 | 0.383 | 3 of 6 | 2.136 | 1 of 6 | 53.5% | 1 of 6 |
| TOMAS KABERLE | TOR | 36.38% | 3 of 5 | 0.311 | 3 of 5 | 1.560 | 2 of 5 | 54.9% | 1 of 5 |
| FILIP KUBA | OTT | 30.73% | 5 of 6 | 0.335 | 3 of 6 | 1.091 | 2 of 6 | 56.2% | 1 of 6 |
| MATT CARKNER | OTT | 27.12% | 6 of 6 | -1.127 | 6 of 6 | 1.705 | 1 of 6 | 51.2% | 5 of 6 |
| SERGEI GONCHAR | OTT | 36.19% | 2 of 6 | 0.294 | 4 of 6 | -0.750 | 4 of 6 | 52.3% | 3 of 6 |
| ERIC BREWER | STL | 37.58% | 1 of 6 | 0.734 | 3 of 6 | -0.264 | 6 of 6 | 48.1% | 5 of 6 |
| FEDOR TYUTIN | CBJ | 34.24% | 2 of 6 | 0.044 | 4 of 6 | 0.193 | 4 of 6 | 51.3% | 4 of 6 |
| STEVE EMINGER | NYR | 29.75% | 5 of 6 | -0.584 | 5 of 6 | 0.921 | 2 of 6 | 52.1% | 3 of 6 |
| MICHAEL DEL ZOTTO | NYR | 32.03% | 3 of 6 | 0.146 | 3 of 6 | -0.092 | 4 of 6 | 51.4% | 4 of 6 |
| MATT GILROY | NYR | 26.74% | 6 of 6 | -1.015 | 6 of 6 | 0.992 | 1 of 6 | 62.3% | 1 of 6 |
*Ranks are based on players with minimum 30 games played.
A quick guide here, Corsi is the all shots directed at net for, minus all shots directed at net against. Relative Corsi is your Corsi relative to your teammates. If the team is +5 while you're on the ice, and -5 when you're not, your Relative Corsi would be +10. Corsi Rel QoC/QoT is the quality of competition based on the relative Corsi rating for all of their opponents/teammates. If you take a shift against a +5, +5, 1, -5, -5, your QoC (5+5+1-5-5), or 1/5 or 0.200. Ozone% is the ratio of offensive zone starts to offensive + defensive zone starts.
Looking at the list, the first thing that stands out is that none of these players are being trusted with 1st pairing competition, but many are getting 1st pairing teammates. Combined with the fact all but Eric Brewer are starting more in the offensive zone than not, we can see a grouping of players that are not considered by their coaching staffs to be reliable defensive defenseman, or at least considered less reliable than other players on their team. This is no different than how our 3rd pairing is used, so from a usage stand point, no one would be seeing much of a role change if they were to get to the Rangers.
| NAME | PTS/60 | PTS | GFON | PTS% | 3 YR PTS% | SPCT | GFON/60 | SFON/60 | ADJ GF | ADJ Pts | Change |
| BRYANMCCABE | 1.309 | 15 | 34 | 44.12% | 30.34% | 8.99 | 2.97 | 30 | 30 | 9 | -6 |
| JONIPITKANEN | 0.893 | 14 | 42 | 33.33% | 31.61% | 8.4 | 2.68 | 29.2 | 40 | 13 | -1 |
| TOMASKABERLE | 0.961 | 16 | 42 | 38.10% | 32.32% | 7.97 | 2.52 | 29.1 | 42 | 14 | -2 |
| FILIPKUBA | 0.313 | 3 | 15 | 20.00% | 31.08% | 5.3 | 1.56 | 27.9 | 23 | 7 | 4 |
| MATTCARKNER | 0.414 | 4 | 18 | 22.22% | 23.40% | 6.5 | 1.87 | 26.8 | 22 | 5 | 1 |
| SERGEIGONCHAR | 0.244 | 4 | 34 | 11.76% | 30.77% | 7.04 | 2.07 | 27.4 | 39 | 12 | 8 |
| ERICBREWER | 0.874 | 14 | 42 | 33.33% | 24.24% | 8.92 | 2.62 | 26.8 | 38 | 9 | -5 |
| FEDORTYUTIN | 0.685 | 10 | 34 | 29.41% | 24.52% | 7.91 | 2.33 | 27.1 | 34 | 8 | -2 |
| STEVEEMINGER | 0.255 | 3 | 23 | 13.04% | 30.21% | 7.26 | 1.95 | 25 | 25 | 8 | 5 |
| MICHAELDEL ZOTTO | 0.379 | 4 | 29 | 13.79% | 30.61% | 8.66 | 2.75 | 29 | 27 | 8 | 4 |
| MATTGILROY | 1.021 | 9 | 23 | 39.13% | 35.30% | 7.99 | 2.61 | 30.1 | 23 | 8 | -1 |
Some clarification again. PTS% is simply the number of points divided by the number of goals scored while the player is on the ice. 3 yr is the totals for the player from 2007-2009. SPCT is the shooting percentage while the team is on the ice. SFON is saves, not shot for while on the ice. To obtain SOG on, you must add the GF and SF numbers. Adjusted GF is the number of goals scored if they got league average shooting (8.0%). Adjusted points is if the player got their 3yr average percentage of points on the adjusted goals. Change is the difference between points and adjusted points.
From an offensive standpoint, you see that the players on this are fairly similar in the amount of points they produce, roughly 30% of all goals that are on the ice. This is a bit above the 3 year average of 28.8%, that Scott Reynolds at Copper and Blue compiled last year. What you also see in Scott's data is wild fluctuations from year to year for certain players. In this list, two players noticably stand out, McCabe and Sergei Gonchar. Based on their last few years, McCabe should have 6 fewer points, Gonchar should have 8 more. The other player being hurt by percentages is in fact Kuba, who has a terrible 5.3 team shooting% while he's on the ice. Combined with a below average p%, he's a player that presents a potential buy low case, at least offensively.
Moving to the defensive numbers:
| NAME | CORSI Rel QoC | Qoc Rank | GAON | CORSI REL | CORSI/60 | SVPCT | GAON/60 | SAON/60 | ADJ GA | ADJ GAON | Change |
| BRYANMCCABE | -0.287 | 7 of 7 | 25 | 1.3 | 1.400 | 93.4% | 2.18 | 30.7 | 30 | 2.630 | -0.450 |
| JONIPITKANEN | 0.383 | 3 of 6 | 45 | 5.1 | 0.770 | 91.3% | 2.87 | 30 | 41 | 2.630 | 0.240 |
| TOMASKABERLE | 0.311 | 3 of 5 | 39 | 6.1 | 2.280 | 92.4% | 2.34 | 28.7 | 41 | 2.483 | -0.143 |
| FILIPKUBA | 0.335 | 3 of 6 | 37 | -3.3 | 0.000 | 86.4% | 3.86 | 24.5 | 22 | 2.269 | 1.591 |
| MATTCARKNER | -1.127 | 6 of 6 | 21 | 5.6 | 5.280 | 91.6% | 2.18 | 23.6 | 20 | 2.062 | 0.118 |
| SERGEIGONCHAR | 0.294 | 4 of 6 | 48 | -3.3 | -0.180 | 90.1% | 2.93 | 26.6 | 39 | 2.362 | 0.568 |
| ERICBREWER | 0.734 | 3 of 6 | 42 | -2.4 | 4.120 | 90.9% | 2.62 | 26.2 | 37 | 2.306 | 0.314 |
| FEDORTYUTIN | 0.044 | 4 of 6 | 34 | 10.4 | 8.150 | 90.8% | 2.33 | 23 | 30 | 2.026 | 0.304 |
| STEVEEMINGER | -0.584 | 5 of 6 | 29 | -1.9 | -4.160 | 91.3% | 2.46 | 26 | 27 | 2.277 | 0.183 |
| MICHAELDEL ZOTTO | 0.146 | 3 of 6 | 35 | 5.0 | 0.000 | 89.0% | 3.32 | 26.9 | 26 | 2.418 | 0.902 |
| MATTGILROY | -1.015 | 6 of 6 | 18 | 6.0 | 4.760 | 92.6% | 2.04 | 25.6 | 19 | 2.211 | -0.171 |
Fairly straight forward here. SVPCT is the team save percentage when the player is on the ice. Adj GA is if the player got league average (92%) goaltending.
Filip Kuba steps to the forefront again. He's getting ECHL level goaltending this year, which explains a good chunk of his -25 while on the ice. With league average goaltending, his GA would be one of the best of the group. Only one player is getting a notable boost from his goalies, and not surprisingly it's Bryan McCabe, with Tomas Vokoun behind him. FLA is known to inflate shot counts for their goaltenders, so it is to be expected that McCabe might have a higher than normal sv%. The best player on his list might just be Fedor Tyutin, who leads all in Corsi and shots against, and adjusted GAON.
You also see that Michael Del Zotto, for all his shortcomings, has not been done any favors by our goaltending. While some will blame MDZ for the bad save% because he allows 'higher quality' chances against, it should be noted that for the season, Girardi, not MDZ, has been on ice for the most scoring chances each month. Yet Girardi is still getting 91.1% from Henrik Lundqvist and Martin Biron, so MDZ is certainly getting unlucky on top of everything else this year.
Finally, we'll look at what everyone really cares about, the power play:
| NAME | TEAM | GP | TOI/60 | SPCT | GFON/60 | SFON/60 | PTS/60 | PTS | PT% | 3 YR% | ADJ GFON | ADJ PTS | Change |
| BRYANMCCABE | FLA | 43 | 3.23 | 6.6 | 3.03 | 42.8 | 1.73 | 4 | 57.14% | 55.56% | 6.095 | 8 | 4 |
| JONIPITKANEN | CAR | 50 | 3.8 | 14.58 | 6.63 | 38.8 | 2.53 | 8 | 38.10% | 44.58% | 6.042 | 8 | 0 |
| TOMASKABERLE | TOR | 58 | 4.17 | 12.38 | 6.45 | 45.6 | 4.22 | 17 | 65.38% | 59.62% | 6.923 | 17 | 0 |
| FILIPKUBA | OTT | 39 | 1.69 | 8 | 3.64 | 41.9 | 1.82 | 2 | 50.00% | 47.78% | 6.057 | 3 | 1 |
| SERGEIGONCHAR | OTT | 57 | 3.96 | 12.02 | 5.85 | 42.8 | 3.99 | 15 | 68.18% | 66.96% | 6.470 | 16 | 1 |
| ERICBREWER | STL | 54 | 0.61 | 5.56 | 1.83 | 31.2 | 0 | 0 | 0.00% | 59.26% | 4.393 | 1 | 1 |
| FEDORTYUTIN | CBJ | 55 | 2.53 | 9.17 | 4.73 | 46.9 | 3.87 | 9 | 81.82% | 51.39% | 6.867 | 8 | -1 |
| STEVEEMINGER | NYR | 50 | 0.29 | 25 | 4.07 | 12.2 | 4.07 | 1 | 100.00% | 51.85% | 2.164 | 1 | 0 |
| MICHAELDEL ZOTTO | NYR | 43 | 3.87 | 9.93 | 5.05 | 45.8 | 1.8 | 5 | 35.71% | 58.82% | 6.763 | 11 | 6 |
| MATTGILROY | NYR | 43 | 1.46 | 8 | 3.83 | 44 | 0 | 0 | 0.00% | 33.33% | 6.361 | 2 | 2 |
Here, adj GFON is the amount of goals that would be scored with post-lockout, league average shooting (13.3%) on the power play, and adjusted points again based on the 3 year average for each player. Matt Carkner has been ignored, since he has almost no PP ice time in his career. Data is only 5v4 power plays.
As you see, most of the options that fans have called for or rumored have very similar production on the powerplay, generating points on about 50% of the goals scored, except for Gonchar who has always been a step above the class. For the most part, they all are performing at about their career levels, but all except Pitkanen are running units that have shot below average for the season. (Kaberle is close to this year's average)
We addressed earlier that McCabe has been mostly lucky with his 5v5 production to date, but the opposite is true on the power play. Florida's abysmal power play has signicantly hurt his production, costing him at least 4 points, and probably more considering the low shot totals being generated by the play on top of it. The only other player that appears to be hurt is Michael Del Zotto, but his 3 year average is really a 1 year average, so it's less reliable due to the small sampling of minutes.
With all of that data, what conclusions do we have?
Bryan McCabe - He's been given heavily sheltered minutes at even strength, and if not for some luck, his +9 at 5v5 could easily be a 0. He's running an abysmal PP unit, but producing at normal levels for him, so in that aspect he'd fit right in here. He'll get a boost from a better PP on the Rangers, but he's a 3rd liner for us. He's an option, but the Rangers should not pay alot to acquire him.
Joni Pitkanen - We can question his availability to begin with, because he eats alot of minutes for Carolina's defense, mostly against 2nd pair competition, and keeps them in the game while he's doing it. His PP production is fairly steady, and would give a big boost to the defense with his ability. He's not great for our deadline needs, but he's a great player to target in the offseason, if his current cost ($4m) stays the same.
Tomas Kaberle - Obviously one of the best PP players available, he basically presents as the same player as Pitkanen, with much more PP ability. We didn't need a long winded, stats-laden post to know he's the best player potentially available. The only problem with Kaberle will be the cost of acquiring him. At the rate today is going, he might not even be an option by the time this posts.
Filip Kuba - Many scoffed at the idea of adding a player with a -25, but if you adjust out how absolutely abysmal Ottawa has played around him, he actually becomes a plus! He can contribute to the PP, but he's not a better option than any of the players we have on the roster. He's a great 'buy low' candidate for some, but he's not an upgrade for us.
Matt Carkner - Really I just added him to show that toughness does not equal defense. He too has been hurt by the terribleness of Ottawa, but with no PP time and the worst competition of the group, he's certainly not an improvement, and likely hurts the roster.
Sergei Gonchar - He's the ultimate PP producer here, but he gives up as much on the back end as he gives you on offense. Essentially, he's Michael Del Zotto, but 15 years older and 6 times more expensive. I'm not sure why he's rumored, but because of his contract, he's probably the worst option on the list, if I hadn't added Carkner.
Eric Brewer - He's the only true defensive defenseman of the group, but he does have a history of PP production, even if he's not showing it this year. Without McDonagh or Sauer running around, he'd be a great fit to take some of the pressure off Staal-Girardi. Instead, McDonagh and Sauer are running around, so Brewer does not really fit unless we can start declining penalties.
Fedor Tyutin - Tyutin is a fine player, who is beating up weaker competition without getting much help. He's probably had the best season of the group aside from Kaberle, and does in fact present a cheap(er) option to maybe kick start the 3rd pairing and the power play.
Add it all up, and if the Rangers were going to make a deal, Tyutin would be my target.
Let the debate continue....
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Tyutin or nobody.
Despite a minor stroke attempting to digest all the metrics above, I agree completely with the conclusion. Tyutin has played here and knows what to expect from the fans and press. He provides a slightly older d-man to stabilize the back end with a reasonable cap number. I would think that Gilroy and a 2nd or 3rd rounder should get this done. Not interested if they want McD, Sauer or MDZ.
by Gabby the Gutless Sniper on Feb 18, 2011 1:24 PM EST via mobile reply actions
Tyutin for a 2nd or Tyutin for Gilroy probably gets it done by itself, don’t think you need to pay that much for him.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 18, 2011 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
Great write-up!
I really don’t see any being a huge improvement but guess it does help solidify our bottom pair a bit for the playoffs.
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by Blueshirt in Paris on Feb 18, 2011 1:40 PM EST reply actions
easy with that p-word…
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by BombersGmenBlueshirts25 on Feb 18, 2011 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
I hadn’t seen him linked to us at all.
Doing a very quick scan, he looks closest to Brewer there, nice player, not sure he fits the need.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 18, 2011 1:58 PM EST up reply actions
fair enough. been a few trades this year already that nobody saw coming and you can never count Sather out of anything
by nyrangerfan521 on Feb 18, 2011 2:00 PM EST up reply actions
Absolutely, but I didn’t want to do like 20-25 defenseman, especially when I was trying to bang this out quickly while it’s still relevant talk.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 18, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
george you're missing one vital statistic
which of these guys has the greatest FDN number…thats wat’s most important
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A lot of smoke and desperate clawing at the door. It wouldn’t work. It would just be a big, hot mess." -Dig Deep
from nhl.com:
‘Boston acquired center Rich Peverley and defenseman Boris Valabik from the Atlanta Thrashers for forward Blake Wheeler and defenseman Mark Stuart.’
thats all to clear cap space for Kaberle
by CrazyRangerFan on Feb 18, 2011 2:01 PM EST up reply actions
this makes the thrashers better. not necessarily good for us
by nyrangerfan521 on Feb 18, 2011 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
It does what now?
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by George E. Ays on Feb 18, 2011 2:03 PM EST up reply actions
how much better is peverly than wheeler? i dont think hes that much better, plus the thrashers are getting a steady NHL dman in it too
by nyrangerfan521 on Feb 18, 2011 2:05 PM EST up reply actions
other way around
wheeler is much better than peverley, but stuart isn’t good. this is a salary dump for the bruins.
stuart isnt worse than the bottom 3-4 Dmen they have been throwing out there this year. this trade no doubt makes the thrashers better this year
by nyrangerfan521 on Feb 18, 2011 2:11 PM EST up reply actions
Peverly’s playing the top competition in ATL, and has more points than Wheeler who is getting completely hidden. The upside is that Wheeler’s 4 years younger, and might be better down the line.
Stuart’s the 3rd pair defenseman on one of the worst defenses in the league 5v5, they get massively outshot, Thomas seriously has bailed them out. He’s not that much better an option on the guys ATL already has playing 3rd pair. If he gets anything resembling top 4 minutes, it’s gonna hurt.
I don’t see any way this makes them better this year.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 18, 2011 2:15 PM EST up reply actions
peverly has played 300 more mins than wheeler and over 125 more PP mins than wheeler and only 7 more points
by nyrangerfan521 on Feb 18, 2011 2:19 PM EST up reply actions
Such is the life of a power versus power player.
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by red army line on Feb 21, 2011 1:15 PM EST up reply actions
idk
im about sick of MDZ
trade him or put him the AHL for the rest of the year
its obvious he just doesnt get it, is having a sophomore slump, looks like a deer in headlights
he is young I get that, but he isnt looking like the player I thought we got in the draft
so send him down to the AHL, he obviously needs time down there
I would keep him down there the rest of the year
honestly, I dont see why McIlrath or Valentenko cant take his spot right now
MDZ isnt exactly setting it on fire up here
I would trade for Tyutin, but at this point Id rather keep Gilroy over Del Zotto, Gilroy looks to be maturing into the player we wanted Del Zotto to be this year
Sauer has been great by the way
McDonna as McGuire likes to call him, has been great too, what a trade that was
by Archie Barberio on Feb 18, 2011 3:32 PM EST reply actions
Trade MDZ
His youth is his value. Teams will pay more for him than for Gilroy. I think Gilroy is still improving. He’s been much better this year than last. Sure, he’s lookd bad once in a while, but not MDZ bad. Gilroy should get some PP time. I don’t think he can be a #1 PP QB, but he can certainly play the point on the second unit.
I’m with frankiec…MDZ to Columbus for Tyutin and Boll. Probably picks thrown in there in some way.
Both are due to improve, but Gilroy at 26 most likely has a more limited ceiling than DZ at 20.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Feb 18, 2011 3:56 PM EST up reply actions
Are you out of your mind?
Del Zotto is 20 years old! He’s just getting started! Possibly the worst trade in New York Rangers history is when we traded Segei Zubov after only three seasons. He made some mistakes as a Ranger, but afterwards, he went on to become one of the greatest defensemen in league history, I will not allow the same thing to happen to Del Zotto. He has so much potential, it makes my had spin.
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by The Last Shall Become First on Feb 18, 2011 4:09 PM EST up reply actions
SLOW!!
MDZ looks slower than Boogey. He has a difficlut time being in the right place at the right time. His passing has devolved. His coach has no confidence in him. He’s gone. Potential is interesting, performance keeps you in the lineup.
by the way
does anybody know when McIlrath will actually be ready?
starting to look like we missed on players who didnt need development time
now I love the McIlrath pick, dude is a beast, I just want him on this team sooner than later
by Archie Barberio on Feb 18, 2011 3:35 PM EST reply actions
Last I heard he’s about 2 seasons away, but I’m not up to date
by teknics on Feb 18, 2011 4:04 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
McIlrath has regrest this year. He is been injurd has not been scoaring and has not been in fights. He was in fights 19 times last year. I dont think hes gotten in 5 this year. O well You get drafted by the Rangers and you become a PU$$Y. Thats the way this organization is !!!!
Or
Once you get drafted and have the chance at making millions of dollars you begin to think that risking injury by fighting isn’t the smartest thing to do in the world
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Feb 18, 2011 4:44 PM EST up reply actions
I think 3 years is the earliest.
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by red army line on Feb 21, 2011 1:16 PM EST up reply actions
Pikanen
I’d love to see us get Pitkanen somehow. Carolina would probably jump all over MDZ if he was offered up, but I’d hate to see us deal MDZ for a rental with no guarnatee of resigning him.
I definitely wouldn’t trade MDZ for two months of Pitkanen. I like Pitkanen, and would sign him in a heartbeat if we abandoned the idea of needing Richards. They can’t afford both.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 18, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions
Pitkanen? He is 69 years old , to give up 20 year old defensmen with all the potential that MDZ has is totally STUPID. We have no other potantial QB in our system.
Forunately
This isn’t the NFL and we don’t need a QB.
But I agree that 2 months of Pitkanen is not enough for MDZ
Pitkanen’s 27.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 18, 2011 5:06 PM EST up reply actions
Ancient!
Pitkanen is solid both ways and would be great on the PP for us. I can totally see Sather making that deal. Not that I agree, but he would be an asset. Great passer. No way we can afford Richards and Pitkanen this summer. I’d rather have Richards.
You are right I had the wrong player. Joni Pitkanen is 25 years old and is also big 6’3 and over 200 pounds. He plays in all situations . I would trade MDZ even if I would have to add a late round draft pick or a prospect from the minors.
He’s still 27.
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by George E. Ays on Feb 18, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions
We've given Kuba a hard time in Ottawa
But based on your work here, it may just be that the surroundings aren’t right for him. I don’t think he’s simply forgotten how to play. I do think with Tortorella coaching him, Gaborik playing alongside him, and Lundqvist behind him, he’d probably be quite a bit better.
So… second rounder? Deal?
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by Peter Raaymakers on Feb 18, 2011 6:11 PM EST reply actions
i dont want brad richards!!!!!!!! hes too soft for thjis team...
we need explosive stars and gabroik is dead….. richards would only make us softer..
we need stars like, stall, kovy, ovie, crosby, malkin,,, lecavier, stamkos, kane, heatly, kane, kessel, spezza, camerlleri, parise, grabner.. guys who bring the game with speed who can lift this team..
rangers have too many second liners on team… we need real stars and first line presence.. i know i want it now,.. but gabby is just playing awful,, we neeed to give him some monster energy drink before each game or a shot of avery adreniline.. but thats whats lacking soft players who dont bring it on every game.. like drury.. example rozi.. now its gabby. how sad.. we need that spark those key players on a first line we dont have scoring……. granted dubi is gettting there.. but stepan? he just looks slow style… was he our first round selection where do we pick these kids? hes good and should get better but faaceoffs worst and speed horrible,, cally and dubi is more what we needed but serious skill and star power for first line… cant wait till thomas and bourque come along.. they look goood kreider too? but hes a question to me in the nhl style? they alk sso highly of him yet hes only in college hockey stilll.. im remeber john talking highly about hugh hessimen as well when i was younger and al montoya who we got in the first rounnd who turned out to be nothing and wasted first rounders while everyone else picks up stars what a joke.. we pick better players in the latter rounds then in the first.. ??
Did you just put Grabner in with those other guys?
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"Numbers don't lie, they just don't agree with you"--George E. Ays
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.
by red army line on Feb 21, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions

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