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Around SBN: What If This Is It For The Celtics? End Of An Era Looming

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kv0cOcJXFv4

The dirtiest player in the league (Matt Cooke) at it again.

Watch the video. The guy has no regard for anyone, he slams Tyutin from behind into the glass, one game after kneeing Alexander Ovechkin.

over 1 year ago Cloutier_tiny JustinL61184 56 comments 0 recs  | 

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Good on Boll for going after him. Guys who can toss the gloves need to start showing him he can’t get away with this crap. If the league won’t police stuff like that then let the players do it.

I normally don’t like a fight occurring after a big hit but that is only if it is a big, clean hit. A fight afterward is just a distraction and often an overreaction, in this case I think it was an appropriate course of action.

@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."

Blueshirt Banter

by Dig Deep on Feb 8, 2011 11:16 PM EST reply actions  

My mistake it was Brassard!! Kid sticking up for his teammate, got to love it. Not known to toss the gloves (or even throw a hit really).

@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."

Blueshirt Banter

by Dig Deep on Feb 8, 2011 11:17 PM EST up reply actions  

http://ehfactor.blogspot.com/2011/02/i-have-confession-regarding-matt-cooke.html

Really worth a read.

@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."

Blueshirt Banter

by Dig Deep on Feb 9, 2011 12:45 AM EST reply actions  

Cooke didn't leave his feet before the hit

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And like the rule states:
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there is also a responsibility on the player with the puck to avoid placing himself in a dangerous and vulnerable position. This balance must be considered by the Referees when applying this rule.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 9, 2011 12:48 AM EST reply actions  

you’re right. when cooke makes contact with tyutin’s back, he hasn’t entered the air. but if you watch the video again, it’s actually much worse than that. cooke makes contact, then proceeds to drive upwards with his legs, sending the entire force of his body into the neck/head/shoulders of tyutin instead of his numbers. if he’d hit him without charging, tyutin wouldn’t have gone flying the way he did. and like you mentioned at pensburgh…a charge doesn’t even require the player to have left his feet. “like the rule says”:

Charging shall mean the actions of a player who, as a result of distance traveled, shall violently check an opponent in any manner. A "charge" may be the result of a check into the boards, into the goal frame or in open ice.

are you saying you don’t think that was a violent check, with distance, into the boards? i’d call it unnecessarily violent and dangerous.

by Natty Bumppo on Feb 9, 2011 1:20 AM EST up reply actions  

but if you watch the video again, it’s actually much worse than that. cooke makes contact, then proceeds to drive upwards with his legs, sending the entire force of his body into the neck/head/shoulders of tyutin instead of his numbers.

Just watched it ten more times and I don’t see this at all. In fact, you can see him pull up just before the hit. It could have been much worse.

Don’t get me wrong – dangerous play by Cooke, but there will be plenty of people pointing that out. I’m just trying to temper the extreme overreaction that tends to occur in situations like this.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 9, 2011 8:27 AM EST up reply actions  

fair point. the extreme reaction though isnt due to this one hit, its due to the dozen or so times in the last 2-3 seasons alone that hes either attempted to injure another player etc.

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

LET'S GO RANGERS!!!

by Moshe52792 on Feb 9, 2011 11:59 AM EST up reply actions  

let’s hope the time off gives him a chance to get his mind right. in the meantime, it gives me a chance to see yet another of our ahl guys up close and personal over the next few days.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 10, 2011 1:19 AM EST up reply actions  

the reason he gets so fair airborne is because he’s driving upwards with his legs away from the numbers and towards the neck. i can hear out “tempering the extreme overreaction,” but claiming tyutin could have prevented this charge is bizarre to me, and falsely apportions the blame. cooke saw the numbers the whole way in—it wasn’t a last-second turn by tyutin—and chose to launch himself anyway.

by Natty Bumppo on Feb 9, 2011 12:27 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Since we're having this conversation in two locations...

 might as well point out here as well that while Cooke is a rat bastard for making the hit, Tyutin is a fool for seeing what was coming and doing nothing whatsoever to protect himself.
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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 10, 2011 1:32 AM EST up reply actions  

i’m tired and i thought his was better handled by some japers’ rink commenters who i respect, so i’ll quote them and leave it at that:

JP:

I don’t think that players are absolved from all responsibility to defend themselves, but in this case, I think blaming the victim is a particularly weak argument, based on the event itself.

[Separate comment]

Right. An example of a guy "not protecting himself" is the dude who sees and turns his back to the oncoming checker at the last second. This was not that.

K_C:

I think there are cases where a player turns into the hit or doesn’t do enough to protect himself and the hitter isn’t completely at fault. But in this case, while Tyutin did have his back to Cooke his numbers were clearly showing the whole way. Just because you don’t like that a player is showing his back doesn’t mean you have the right to drill him in the numbers when you have ample opportunity to stop.

It also doesn’t matter that Tyutin saw Cooke. He was playing the puck, and the only way to play the puck given the position he was in was to turn his back on Cooke, which again doesn’t give Cooke the right to send him head first into the boards. If Tyutin were a righty he’d bare a lot more blame as he would have been able to play the puck without turning his back. Is Tyutin supposed to just not play the puck so that Cooke has an opportunity to hit him legally and take the puck?

Throw in the fact that Cooke jumped into Tyutin’s back, and there is just no defense for this play. Too bad the NHL will just let him off with a slap on the wrist because Tyutin is okay.

F&B:

Whether he saw him is almost irrelevant. Tyutin was never in a legally checkable position. If he was legally checkable, then turned his back to Cooke, then it would matter that he saw him. But you don’t always just expect people to blatantly break the rules so I don’t see what the point is. Even if Tyutin saw him, his numbers were facing Cooke the whole time, end of story. You don’t get to destroy guys and say "he should have been in a legally checkable position."

Knee high to a Duck:

If Tyutin had ever been anything but back-to-Cooke, then there’d be an argument for that. If he’d turned at the last second, there’d be an argument. At no point in Cooke’s approach was Tyutin in a spot where Cooke could have hit him without serious risk of injury.

It’s not his responsibility to make himself checkable when he’s going back for the puck.

Gould Old Days:

I hadn’t seen the play. Wow, that is fucking horrible. That same event happens in every game. And the forward finishes his check by coming in two feet to the left, so that he can give a nice controlled little shove. No excuse for that kind of hit.

I love this theory that Tyutin is in some way to blame because Cooke had so much damned time to plan his hit — like the fact that the play was developing for a long time somehow makes what Cooke did less bad, not worse.

and of course ThePensBlog…the same post where you found this pic:

You can’t hit a guy from behind. No way, no how. It does not matter if he saw him coming.

if the guy had been shoulder to the boards and then turned last second, then fine, it was his fault. as stands, he bears exactly 0% of the blame for cooke’s dangerous and potentially injurious hit.

by Natty Bumppo on Feb 10, 2011 4:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Didn’t read them all but I think you guys miss the point. To say that both players share some responsibility is not to absolve one player from blame.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 10, 2011 3:58 PM EST up reply actions  

and i think he bears zero responsibility as the events unfolded. and i think it’s absurd you continue to argue otherwise. but whatever.

by Natty Bumppo on Feb 10, 2011 8:38 PM EST up reply actions  

and if there’s a pie chart of responsibility for a given dangerous play, and you’re arguing that tyutin deserves even a slice of it, then you are absolving cooke of some percentage of blame. otherwise, explain to me exactly what you’re doing?

by Natty Bumppo on Feb 10, 2011 8:42 PM EST up reply actions  

and if there’s a pie chart of responsibility

I never said there was.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 11, 2011 1:47 AM EST up reply actions  

otherwise, explain to me exactly what you’re doing?

so you’re just outright blaming the victim. got it.

by Natty Bumppo on Feb 11, 2011 11:33 AM EST up reply actions  

No, I said that Cooke deserves all the blame that he gets, but also that maybe there was some room on the other side to be more responsible. Whatever, I’ll let it go.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 15, 2011 5:59 PM EST up reply actions  

I didn’t think he left his feet, the issue is that he hits him squarely in the back when the player was in a very vulnerable position, just like the image you posted shows. Stupidly dangerous play by Cooke.

@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."

Blueshirt Banter

by Dig Deep on Feb 9, 2011 1:48 AM EST up reply actions  

He still boarded him, Tyutin didn’t put himself in a vulnerable position. He was just trying to get to the puck first and this play happens all the time, yet Cooke takes it upon himself to drive Tyutin’s back, shoulders, head, and face right into the glass.

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by Tripodi on Feb 9, 2011 1:54 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I see players all the time who are able to make that play along the boards without putting themselves in such a vulnerable position.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 9, 2011 8:29 AM EST up reply actions  

The play I’d have expected Tyutin to make is to poke the puck along with his shoulders perpendicular to the boards, bracing himself, or quickly turn with the puck away from Cooke.

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by red army line on Feb 9, 2011 9:29 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

I do too, but Cooke saw Tyutin’s numbers for a good 3 seconds, he knows that if you drive someone into the boards and you get them on the numbers, it’s a penalty. Cooke knew that, nevermind the position they were both in, Tyutin was prepared to take a hit, but he didn’t prepare to be boarded. I’m not saying it was a charging or anything, just that the hit was illegal.

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by Tripodi on Feb 9, 2011 3:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Fair enough.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 10, 2011 1:33 AM EST up reply actions  

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by John Merrigan on Feb 9, 2011 10:12 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Wow, how about that. Clear as day.

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by Dig Deep on Feb 9, 2011 11:20 AM EST up reply actions  

Yes, clear as day that he did not leave his feet until after the hit.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 10, 2011 1:39 AM EST up reply actions  

the TSN angle on thepensblog says differently

one foot already in the air, the other foot ready for lift-off on his upward hop.

by Natty Bumppo on Feb 10, 2011 4:18 AM EST up reply actions  

by the way, we’ve gone round and round on japers’ rink in other incidents where someone tried to defend his/her position using screen shots (we even have an inside joke about “MS Paint” where a caps fan tried to defend brashear’s hit on betts with a series of screen shots and was roasted by other caps fans). i think you find the more of these arguments you get into, the less faith you’ll put into someone’s screen grab.

by Natty Bumppo on Feb 10, 2011 4:41 AM EST up reply actions  

Can be very subjective evidence that you can tweak to greatly aid the position you have. By posting a screen cap that is a fraction of a second before a player leaves his feet you can make it look like the player never left his feet. It is really absurd.

@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."

Blueshirt Banter

by Dig Deep on Feb 10, 2011 12:41 PM EST up reply actions  

It is absurd to think you can watch a full speed video and then make judgments about exactly what happened. You have to slow it down, pinpoint the exact time that contact was made and then see where the skates are. That’s what I did. Do it for yourself, but at least provide some counter argument with more substance than merely saying that my argument is absurd.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 10, 2011 4:04 PM EST up reply actions  

I think that video is more telling. I am not trying to be cute but the video is where you get the screen shot in the first place.

When I look at the clip I see a player leaving his feet just as he makes contact. I don’t see him viciously launching into the hit, but I do see him leaving his feet. I am growing very, very tired of this whole thing. I didn’t say your argument was absurd, I said that tailoring screen shots to help support anyone’s side of the argument is absurd. I don’t think they are much use without a video to look at for reference. If I had only seen your initial screen shot I would never have seen several things; the speed at which Cooke came in, the angle, if and when he left his feet, etc.

I think it is safe to say we have a difference of opinion on the event. Perhaps we should leave it at that. When I see the clip I see Cooke leaving his feet as he makes contact. When you see it you see it happening after contact is made. Let’s leave it at that.

@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."

Blueshirt Banter

by Dig Deep on Feb 10, 2011 5:58 PM EST up reply actions  

By posting a screen cap that is a fraction of a second before a player leaves his feet you can make it look like the player never left his feet. It is really absurd.

I will take you at your word that this statement was not directed at me but was a generalization.

If I had only seen your initial screen shot I would never have seen several things; the speed at which Cooke came in, the angle, if and when he left his feet, etc.

Please see my reply to NB below. Of course you have more than my screen shot to go on. The link to the video is included in this post as is the animated GIF.

Of course you can’t make a judgment based solely on my shot any more than you can form an intelligent opinion based solely on the full speed video. I’m not just talking about this play either. I remember some time ago Kronwall was being accused of jumping into hits left and right and Wings fans were able to debunk those claims (for the most part, not saying he never does it) by breaking down the video and proving his skates didn’t leave the ice until after the hit. In this case it is tougher to find the absolute proof in one freeze frame but I have done my best to isolate the moment of impact. You don’t believe me, or trust me, or think I’m a liar, that’s fine. But offer some kind of counter other than repeating that you have watched the video and I am wrong.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 11, 2011 1:46 AM EST up reply actions  

My counter argument is this: I see Matt Cooke leaving his feet just as he is about to make impact with Tyutin. Plain and simple. I have watched it about ten or twelve times now and that is what I see everytime, I am not looking to see that happen and only that. But that is what I see. When I first went to Pensburgh what I saw was only your screen capture (and the video obviously that was at the start of the thread). I think that screen captures in general are subjective. They can too easily be tweaked or manipulated without telling the whole story. If you and I watch the same little clip or .gif and you keep saying ‘he left his feet afterwards’ and I keep saying ‘he hopped off his feet just when impact was about to be made’ we will never really find a common ground on this, will we? Beyond all of that this is a moot argument. He has been given a well-deserved suspension. I will ask you again to simply come to realization that we will not agree on this and that neither one of us can convince the other. I have tried to make a few concessions in the effort to get us to a common ground but it seems like it was a fruitless endeavor. Drop it, it is becoming a distraction. Have a great day. Best of luck to you getting Crosby back from injury (said in all seriousness).

@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."

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by Dig Deep on Feb 11, 2011 1:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Let me paraphrase what you’re saying – “you drop it and I’ll keep countering your arguments”.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 14, 2011 8:27 PM EST up reply actions  

I only reiterated things I had already said. Once again, thanks for offering your opinion. I don’t really see how saying what you said above helps anything. We won’t agree on the topic. It ends now. Thanks for stopping by.

@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."

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by Dig Deep on Feb 15, 2011 1:48 AM EST up reply actions  

I’m fine ending the discussion here. Obviously we can agree that this was a dirty play by Cooke and quibbling about the details takes away from that point.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 15, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

LET'S BE HONEST

You would have put complete faith in John’s screen shot because it supports your view of what happened and yet his is CLEARLY WELL AFTER CONTACT HAS BEEN MADE.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 10, 2011 4:05 PM EST up reply actions  

SCREEN SHOTS ARE MORE CONCLUSIVE THAN A FULL SPEED VIDEO

The point is you have to judge for yourself. You can’t look at a full speed video and tell me conclusively when he left his feet relative to when contact was made. I watched the video in super slo-mo going frame by frame and determined when, in my opinion, contact was made and that’s the screen shot I provided. I’m not asking you to put faith in my judgment. Do it for yourself, but don’t tell me that by watching the video above at full speed you can tell 100% that one foot was in the air before contact. If you slow it down, you can see the contact based on the shifting of Tyutin’s head, changes in the crease of his jersey and so forth.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 10, 2011 4:03 PM EST up reply actions  

i believe your screenshot was purposefully misleading, and that it is impossible to tell whether there’s contact at the moment of your screen grab from looking it. it’s selectively telling a story that suits your own belief of what happened. and i think that’s the case with many screen shot arguments that i’ve seen over the year. i think 99 out of 100 people would tell you that it’s clear he’s already launching himself and has one foot in the air when he makes contact, based on the animated GIF above.

by Natty Bumppo on Feb 10, 2011 8:37 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Very well said.

@DigDeepNYR
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"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."

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by Dig Deep on Feb 10, 2011 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

If that was so well said, then why did you write this reply to John’s screen shot?

Wow, how about that. Clear as day.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 11, 2011 1:33 AM EST up reply actions  

i believe your screenshot was purposefully misleading

I don’t know what I’ve done to deserve being called a liar.

it is impossible to tell whether there’s contact at the moment of your screen grab from looking it.
Just as it is impossible to tell from the full speed video.
it’s selectively telling a story that suits your own belief of what happened.
So, again, I’m a liar.

You act like I own this video and I’m only releasing this one shot of it and telling you to believe everything that I am saying. The video is there. Analyze it yourself, and I don’t mean just watch it over and over. Load it to your own video editing software and go through it frame by frame. Pay attention to details like the movement of Tyutin’s head and upper body just as Cooke makes contact. Watch as the creases in the jersey start to contort after contact is made. Then you’ll be able to make an intelligent call on how this went down. Don’t just call me a liar and say it is so because you believe it happened differently. Offer proof of your own. John posted a shot and your buddy Dig Deep there said it was perfectly clear what happened, and yet I can tell you with 1000% conviction that John’s capture is LONG after contact is made. Any two-year old could tell you that.

i think 99 out of 100 people would tell you that it’s clear he’s already launching himself and has one foot in the air when he makes contact,

I’m asking this without giving it much thought, so you may be able to come up with something, but please tell me what sport that uses video replay to make or overturn calls does so without using slo-mo and going frame by frame at times to see exactly what happened. Would you want to be convicted of something, or even called a liar based on what 99 of 100 people think they are seeing on a youtube video or animated GIF?

While we are on the subject of deception, don’t you also realize that it can be very deceiving to watch a play like this from only one angle? And yet that is apparently all you have seen, without putting any additional effort into your analysis before calling me a liar. When you watch the whole video, the play actually looks much different from the side angle than it does from behind. From behind it appears he is launching himself 5 feet into the air, but clearly from the side view this is not the case.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 11, 2011 1:32 AM EST up reply actions  

wait, so watching it from one angle is worse than watching it from one frame? and having you tell us that’s the frame when contact is being made, even though it’s directly from behind?

the proof is in the video, and if i wanted to go back and grab a screen shot of the exact moment when i believe the contact was initiated, i could…and cooke’s foot would be in the air. it would be easy. i could claim to the world that i was right and you were wrong. but it wouldn’t change your opinion. you would think i selectively chose a screenshot to fit my view, the same way i think you selectively chose a screenshot to fit your view. which was my point. get down from your cross. your screenshot doesn’t tell me shit. i apparently have to take your word that you analyzed the “creases in the jersey” as they “start to contort after contact is made.” basically: you have 1000% conviction that john’s capture is wrong and after re-watching this GIF i have 1000% conviction that your capture is wrong. where does that get us? as i said before, from my experience it’s better to post the GIF for everyone to see, which also shows the aftermath of cooke driving himself upwards into the helpless player.

by Natty Bumppo on Feb 11, 2011 11:43 AM EST up reply actions   1 recs

So you think John’s capture is the point of impact – where the upper body is already pushed forward and the head snapped back. That’s all you had to say, and then I would realize there is not point in trying to discuss facts with you. You have a very biased view and you see it the way you want to see it. On top of that, you will continue to put words in my mouth. Should I just give you my password and you can have this conversation on your own?

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 14, 2011 8:31 PM EST up reply actions  

so why doesnt the pens fan comment on this?

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

LET'S GO RANGERS!!!

by Moshe52792 on Feb 9, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

It’s because Pens fans are literally blind to any of the shenanigans indulged in by their team…..how can anybody seriously defend this hit as part of the game? How can anybody say he didn’t leave his feet?

What a fanbase they’ve got over there—unwilling and unable to ever say a bad word about any of their players, regardless of how they act on the ice.

Prole art threat.

by greifi griffie on Feb 9, 2011 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

Usually the “leaving his feet” discussion is centered around whether the player leaves his feet before or after contact is made. In this case, it was clearly after. Not defending the hit, just defending the truth.

If you’d bother to look “over there”, you’d see plenty of fans speaking out against what Cooke did and has done.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 10, 2011 1:22 AM EST up reply actions  

so u found that pic right before he left his feet. check out the pic right below. come on now, even you cant defend that

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

LET'S GO RANGERS!!!

by Moshe52792 on Feb 9, 2011 12:00 PM EST up reply actions  

My capture was just as contact was being made. John’s shot is well after contact was made. You can tell that just from the shift in position of Tyutin’s head. Watch the video in slo-mo and decide for yourself when he left his feet relative to when contact was made. Not saying this lone fact makes it a clean hit. Just saying you should have the facts at your disposal when discussing it.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 10, 2011 1:26 AM EST up reply actions  

dude - hes pushing himself upward.

there is no denying the fact he launches himself into Tyutin’s numbers. Whether you agree or disagree that he left is his feet is moot point. The fact of the matter is, Cooke showed a complete lack of respect in that hit. He had ample time to slow down and not kill him. It’s not like Tyutin turned, Cooke saw his numbers for a good five or six seconds and instead of letting up, he went for the kill. That’s all that matters.

End of story.

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by John Merrigan on Feb 10, 2011 6:01 PM EST up reply actions   1 recs

Cooke saw his numbers for a good five or six seconds

It is comments like this one that convince me even more that Rangers fans are not at all interested in the truth. It is not enough for you to say Cooke was guilty of a dirty hit, you have to stretch the truth to such a degree that it turns him into a complete villain. If that’s the story you want to write, then sure, it can be the end of the story.

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by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 11, 2011 1:39 AM EST up reply actions  

jesus f’n christ. ban this tool already…before he actually does paralyze/kill someone.

Rangers FTW!

by BleedsRangerBlue on Feb 9, 2011 10:25 AM EST reply actions  

One day Matt Cooke is going to really injure someone.

Oh wait….

by The Blue Seats on Feb 9, 2011 7:26 PM EST reply actions  

Tyutin probably should’ve protected himself better in that situation, but let’s be honest Matt Cooke never shyed away from a cheap shot he never liked. Cooke deserves any suspension he gets & I hope someone will take a run at him and delivers the same dirty cheap shot to his coconut like he did to Marc Savard.

by NYR #35 Richter on Feb 13, 2011 11:38 PM EST reply actions  

At least you’re an honest fan who will admit he wishes injuries to occur.

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Follow me on twitter, Picasa or at Pens Through My Lens. Or don't. Whatever.

by PensAreYourDaddy on Feb 14, 2011 8:32 PM EST up reply actions  

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