Glen Sather, You Cigar Smoking Rascal, You!
by captain9nyr on Apr 27, 2011 5:15 PM EDT
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Print[Note by Jim Schmiedeberg, 04/27/11 5:14 PM EDT Terrific writeup by the Captain here]
The Rangers don't always make smart personnel moves, but when they do, they prefer to open up cap space.
Glen Sather, you drive me absolutely up a wall on way too often an occasion, but I came upon some information today that makes you, by far, the most interesting General Manager in the World.
Did you all know that if you buy out a player who is 25 year of age or younger, the buyout cap hit is 1/3 of the remaining salary over 2 years? Glen Sather did....when he traded for Wojtek Wolski.
We all celebrated our first Rozsivus this past January 10th with a rousing party of a Blueshirt Banter Radio Show (the first appearance by yours truly) because, at face value, we saw a 32 year old defenseman (on a team heaping with young defensemen ready to play) with a cap hit of $5 million for this year and next traded away for a 24 year old forward (for a team who couldn't score in a brothel with a fistful of hundreds) with a cap hit of $3.8 Million for this year and next.
At face value, Glen, well done. But, look a little deeper and it begins to look like a true stroke of genius.
A little known tidbit in the CBA states that, unlike normal buyouts where 2/3 of the remaining contract is owed over double the remaining years, 25 and younger players who are bought out are only bought out at 1/3 the remaining contract.
What does this mean? Numbers don't lie. (Courtesy of Capgeek.com)
Buying Out Michal Roszival:
2011-12: $3,000,000
2012-13: $1,000,000
Buying out Wojtek Wolski:
2011-12: $466,667
2012-13: $666,667
Knowing this information makes the trade that that that much better. Bringing in Wolski was an absolutely zero risk move. Had he regained his prior form and started to score again, he could have been brought back for 2011-12 and the team has a useful forward, not a useless defenseman, and saves $1.2 million in cap space. But, as we know, this did not happen as planned.
If it happens the way I believe it may, and Wolski will be bought out, the Rangers will have effectively turned $5 Million in cap hit to a mere $466,667 and opened up a spot for a young defenseman (Ryan McDonagh) and then a spot for a young forward (Chris Kreider?). What could the Rangers do with this $4,533,333 in space? Well, this brings us to step 2 of Glen's evil plan: Chris Drury.
The last remaining of the failed super-contracts that hasn't been traded or demoted is none other than Captain Clutch (or Captain Crutch, depending what side of the coin you're on). Because Chris Drury has a no-movement clause, a Greyhound to Connecticut won't be an option for #23 as it was for #6. He also can't be traded the way #19 and #33 were. Without explicit consent, the only way the Rangers can remove Chris Drury and his cap hit of $7.05 Million for 2011-12 is to buy him out.
Buying out Chris Drury:
2011-12: $3,716,667
2012-13: $1,666,667
Buying out #23 would cost $3,716,667 of the $4,533,333 in space that Sather created, but then also remove $7,050,000 in salary off of the cap and create a whopping $7,866,666 in additional cap space.
Let me (and Capgeek) do the math for you: The Rangers will have $24,654,166 in cap space into next season if they buy out Wolski and Drury. This doesn't even account for possible removals of Sean Avery, Derek Boogaard, and Erik Christensen.
It's not as easy as that, however. Ryan Callahan (we're going to need a Captain now), Brandon Dubinsky, Artem Anisimov, Brian Boyle, Michael Sauer, and Matt Gilroy are all restricted free agents and need new contracts. Having said that, with almost $25,000,000 to spend, I'm confident that Sather can sign who he needs to internally and make one addition from the outside.
Well played, Glen. Well played.
Brian Attard
Contributor to Blueshirt Banter Radio
http://www.blueshirtbanter.com
@captain9nyr
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I am now 100% convinced that he must have some disorder like schizophrenia or multiple personalities where a different Glen comes out on July 1st and gives out insane contracts while bidding against no one else. I’m on the fence about Richards still, if its for 4 years or less I’d go for it but I think he wants a very lengthy deal w/ a Top 10 salary and in that case I stay away.
Good find, great write up, Captain.
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Whoa
That guy really is an evil genius
"Don't look now, but there's one too many people in this room and I think it's you." Groucho Marx
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A lot of smoke and desperate clawing at the door. It wouldn’t work. It would just be a big, hot mess." -Dig Deep
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by Kevin Power on Apr 26, 2011 8:07 AM EDT via mobile reply actions
I agree with everything but giving away Erik Christensen. He’s still a young forward with skill that is starting to show. He can score from impossible angles and is still young. Yes he only had 27 pts and yes he is 28 (I still call that young) but he has the chance to provide help with Gaborik or Cally and Dubi. Now if after this season he doesn’t pick up more pts than this year then maybe shopping him around for someone might be in question.
But just stating I think keeping Christensen and Wolski would be good. Now getting out Avery, Boogard, and Drury, now that is an option I’d be happy with. And with the Richards standpoint I think he will be looking for atleast 5 or 6 years with a pay of atleast 7mil. If thats the case I wouldn’t risk it, oh and didn’t he have a concussion this year?
I listen to Enter Sandman before taking exams. I wear the exact same jersey every Giants game. The Rangers goal song goes off in my head when I achieve small successes in life.
HEN-RIK
by BombersGmenBlueshirts25 on Apr 26, 2011 1:21 PM EDT reply actions
Would rather give Wolski a real chance next year than buy him out. Would like to see what he can do if we pick up a playmaking center to be with him. He has world-class hands and all sorts of upside and talent, he is just inconsistent as they come… true, we have way too many “inconsistent” guys (Gabby, EC, Wolski, Dubi at times, etc) not to mention the kids I am cutting some slack for (Steps, AA, Zuke).
I like the Wolski trade a lot. He can be a big part of this team if he keeps himself focused and works on his game. He has to not be afraid to use his big frame to get some ugly goals and make people try and beat his long stride. He has all the tools but no blueprint to his game. I hope Torts can give him the blueprint.
I just made a lovely metaphor.
@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."
I don’t disagree that he has the talent, the question is whether it makes sense to pay $3.8 million to find out when you can pay $466,000 and not worry about it. Only because he’s as young as he is and making what he’s making and producing how he produced does it make it palatable to buy him out and open up very valuable cap space. If he was scoring goals the way he should, it’s probably not in the discussion, but he didn’t, and the buyout rules are team-favorable.
@captain9nyr
I think you hold onto him for at least part of another season to see what he can do and if Torts can bring out the best in him. Unless we find ourselves desperate to make a splash in a very shallow FA market this offseason. If we really want to be sure about locking up Arty, Dubi, Cally, Boyle, Sauer, etc. then I understand what you are getting at. It saves a lot of money and wouldn’t sting too bad in terms of the buy-out penalty.
Still, it is rare to find a player with that combination of size and skill. I’d really like to give him a fair shake and see what he can do in a full season with the Rangers. Maybe I am being too patient and hopeful about Wolski, I do like what he can bring to the club in terms of raw skill and creativity. Makes for a very interesting player to pair with guys like Stepan and Gaborik.
@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."
I’d have to agree, the FA market is really bare outside Richards, some old guys, and maybe a few guys with potential like Jussi Jokinen.
Unless a miracle happens, I doubt any of the kids like Thomas/Kreider or Grachev are going to make the team this year (though I’m sure Thomas will eventually be here and probably Kreider too).
Gaborik, Callahan, Dubinsky, Prust, Fedotenko, should all definitely be here next year (Feds is the only question mark because of contract, but there’s no reason not to bring him back). I think Zuke will make a comeback. I’m doubtful on Avery and guessing either Boogaard will be ready, or if he is done due to concussion (or Sather finds a way to be rid of him), we’ll bring in another ‘tough guy’ so that Prust doesn’t have to, because Prust is way more valuable playing hockey than fighting. So that’s 7 wingers, leaving 1 spot open.
I wouldn’t mind Vinnie coming back on a 1 year deal, but I’d still rather find a way to get some younger, faster legs. Also not sure if Stepan makes a jump to wing, which by my count would be our 8 wingers Gab/Dub/Cal/Zuke/Prust/Feds/Step/FA tough guy.
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I feel like the team can’t pass up the chance to get a legitimate upgrade on the first line. If that means buying out Wolski for the extra cap space, then do it. We can’t use next year as another “tryout” for Wolski. Hank and Gabby aren’t getting younger, and we need to make new strides each year. This year was a great step in the right direction… next year, lets step further. Use the cap space. Find an upgrade.
I feel like the team can’t pass up the chance to get a legitimate upgrade on the first line.
Completely in agreement with you on that point, but where is that upgrade going to come from? The FA market is very thin outside of Richards, especially talented forwards. If buying out Wolski means making sure we can get Richards for a reasonable contract and cap hit, I’d do it in a heartbeat. But we should find ourselves with some wiggle room in the cap if we handle the RFA contracts we have appropriately and find a way to cut ties with Drury. Not very likely or easy to do, but it would free up plenty of cap space.
@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."
I don’t have the answer to your question… but it could come in the form of Richards or maybe through trades?
Either way, doesn’t the decision to buyout Wolski have to come before July 1? So it may be a situation where the safe bet is to buy him out, see if we can upgrade, and if a reasonable fit isn’t there, then we still have some extra cap space.
I get alot of flack for my brutally honest opinions on here, so I would like to point out that I’ve been pushing the Wolski buyout idea since before the deadline, but I was assured back then, that not only was Wolski a great young talent, we could certainly get someone to take him on in a trade. Not trying to toot my own horn, or steal anyones thunder, just pointing it out for those who like to say I’m just negative. Wolski was a salary dump from day 1, and a long shot, at best, to live up to a $3.8 cap hit.
Back to the real point of what you guys were talking about. I don’t think it’s a matter of what we’ll DO with the money, it’s sending the message that it’s time to earn your keep. If we can use the money to help the team in the UFA market, if not, we’ve created valuable cap space if something comes up. Dumping Dru and Wolski would not only act as a wake up call, but give us the space to show we mean business if guys don’t hear it.
by BuckarooClub on Apr 27, 2011 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Mark Messier
Has anybody noticed since Mark Messier has become the assistant GM and traniee per say to MR. Sather that this year some good moves have been executed?. I wondered during the season if Messier is right there informing Sather, “that might not be a good idea or that player does not fit the culture for what we are building here”
Just my opinion
It’s an interesting thought, though I really think they’ll stick with Wolski since he’s very talented, and still young enough to be impressionable. One of the important factors here is that Wolski will be playing for a contract next year. And not just any contract, but at his age might be looking for something long-term, though he is an RFA still.
Blueshirt Banter *It's just pain.*
Member of the 'Adopt a Bolt Program.' Go Lightning!
Please, God...No
I never want to see Wolski again. Ever. If the only reason the guy might remember how to play the game is the fact that if he doesn’t he’ll be shipped back to play in some crumby European League, then he’s got the wrong attitude for this team, in my opinion. He doesn’t do anything particularly well, and the only thing he’s “good” at is creating chances. But that was a few years back, and since, he’s looked about as threatening as McIlroy at the last round of the Masters. Boot him, and boot him and good
by broadwayblueshirts on Apr 27, 2011 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions
Believe me, I’m no Wolski fan. He’s lazy at best, but unless there’s some spectacular need for his cap money (and it’s been a while but I think it’s still possible to re-sign our RFAs and bring in Richards if that’s what’s going to happen), we might as well keep him for another year, since I think he’ll find it in himself to give a shit so he gets paid next off-season.
Throwing him out because there’s a plan and we need his cap space is one thing, throwing him out just for the hell of it is something else entirely.
Blueshirt Banter *It's just pain.*
Member of the 'Adopt a Bolt Program.' Go Lightning!
And to add, if he does get bought-out, I think that money will go towards a puck-moving defender.
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Scratch that, it’d be super-tight.
Almost 17m right now. Add in a minimum of 2 for next year’s increase.
Cally 4, Dubi 3.5 (should get 2 after his 2nd half), AA 2, Boyle 2?, Sauer 1.3, Add MDZ for 1m, so that’s about 14m. Still need 1D and a couple of forwards just to field a team.
Blueshirt Banter *It's just pain.*
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Wouldn’t be super tight if they clear out $7.05 Million…
@captain9nyr
by captain9nyr on Apr 28, 2011 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
Keep in mind
Dubi held out looking for 4 last time. I’m sure that’s going to be the starting point this time. He’s put up more points over the last two seasons, and had less injury concerns then Cally too. Just pointing it out cause his agent seems to run a tight ship, and won’t let those kind of things slide. I think Cally will be more willing to take a deal like Staal and Girardi, while Dubi could be more interested in getting to RFA status.
by BuckarooClub on Apr 28, 2011 12:28 AM EDT up reply actions
I can agree with you on this, Dubi is going to have to get at least the same deal as Cally or its not gonna fly.
by CrazyRangerFan on Apr 28, 2011 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Neither of them should make as much as Pavelski
$16 million for 4 years would be overpaying either Callahan or Dubinsky.
Sather should go to the table with that in mind.
Chris Kunitz makes $3.75m, and both are better than him.
I still say both sign for $3.8m
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by George E. Ays on Apr 28, 2011 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
I will be BLOWN AWAY if Dubi is under $4
After following the negotiations last time, I really think there’s gonna be a pissing match between Dubi’s agent and the Rangers, and nothing less then $4 mil will do. Thinking of Dubi’s last hold out made me think of Ave’s comments from camp that year about how he he was heading over to watch Dubi do Torts skating test at Chelsea Piers.
Anyway, I think we need a “Rangers Hot Stove Pool” and you are the charts and numbers guys George.
by BuckarooClub on Apr 28, 2011 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Depends on the number of UFA years that get bought. I wouldn’t say I’d be shocked if he got over $4, but I’m not expecting it.
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by George E. Ays on Apr 28, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions
Like I said above, I see Cally being more interested in Staal/Girardi type deal. I see Dubi looking to get to arbitration/UFA status. Just my gut, and the way things went last time. I want it to be wrapped up quick, but if that doesn’t happen, some fireworks during the negotiations would certainly give us something to talk about in the off season.
by BuckarooClub on Apr 28, 2011 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Just lovely.
Except I think Drury is staying.
"Jaromir Jagr.... it's a POWER PLAY GOAL!"
- Sam Rosen
"Let me ask you, would you want to play for the Edmonton Oilers...? (laughter)"
-Evgeni Nabokov
"We're not going to win a 1-0 hockey game tonight"
-John Tortorella, before the Rangers 1-0 win over the Canucks.
I think they’ll keep Wolski and hope for the best. I think they’ll threaten drury with buying out but in the end will try to get him to waive his NMC and trade him to a team with a lot of cap and a lack of experience, like the oilers or avs. I think we also have to realize that the cap is supposed to be raised 3-4 mil this year making up for some cap space.
I expect they'll keep Wolski......
but I think they should buy out both he and Drury because the thing about Wolski is this: you’re enticed by his latent skills and potential combined with his age, so you’re inclined to take him on one more year.
The problem with that is any time WW stopped performing Torts just cut his ice time, and I don’t see that changing next year. The way I feel about Zherdev is how I feel about WW. Laziness cannot be coached out of a person, in 99% of the case.
Both Colorado and Phoenix gave up on this kid; two franchises that have been amazing at bringing along young talent.
If the Rangers want to go deep into the playoffs they need to jettison guys like WW, and (I know it isn’t the most popular move on this site) I think they should use the saved money to bring in Brooks Laich and Zenon Konopka.
Konopka only if you can get Boogaard’s contract off the books, of course. Boogaard is a terribly slow behemoth whose effectiveness in today’s NHL is nil. Zilch. Zero…he isn’t scaring anybody because there’s only about ten guys in this league that will fight him, and six or seven of them play in the west.
Konopka can win faceoffs and has enough speed to be somewhat effective. Laich is all size and grit who can chip in offense.
Leave the Wolski’s to float around some other team’s perimeter. I want a Stanley Cup not a bunch of ballerinas on skates.
if only drury would retire and the cap would go up around 4 mil. than the team could buy out wolski, ship boogaard to russia, and be able to resign dubi, cally, aa, boyle, sauer, prospal and sign richards laich and wiz if we let gilly and eminger walk. i wasn’t sure how to put in the buyout, but it still works.
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Vaclav Prospal ($2.200m) / Brad Richards ($7.500m) / Marian Gaborik ($7.500m)
Brandon Dubinsky ($4.000m) / Artem Anisimov ($2.200m) / Ryan Callahan ($4.000m)
Brooks Laich ($3.600m) / Derek Stepan ($0.875m) / Mats Zuccarello-Aasen ($1.750m)
Sean Avery ($1.937m) / Brian Boyle ($2.000m) / Brandon Prust ($0.800m)
Erik Christensen ($0.925m)
DEFENSEMEN
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Daniel Girardi ($3.325m)
Ryan McDonagh ($1.300m) / James Wisniewski ($3.400m)
Mike Sauer ($1.300m) / Michael Del Zotto ($1.087m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m) / Martin Biron ($0.875m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $62,000,000; CAP PAYROLL: $61,425,000; BONUSES: $1,487,500
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $575,000
SO WHAT IM SAYING IS, PLEASE RETIRE DRURY.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
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"Don't look now, but there's one too many people in this room and I think it's you." Groucho Marx
In Prust We Trust
"Kovalev would work with Tortorella like a kitty would work in a microwave.
A lot of smoke and desperate clawing at the door. It wouldn’t work. It would just be a big, hot mess." -Dig Deep
Follow me @8kpower
as much as digger loves photoshop…
ok, maybe not.
:)
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
That’s it. No more photoshops ever again. You just ruined it for everybody (guilt trip)
@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."
but now everyones gonna hate me!
plus, you can’t stop photoshopping even if you wanted to. its a magical world where you alter reality.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
Are you suggesting that photoshopping is a physiological addiction?
I listen to Enter Sandman before taking exams. I wear the exact same jersey every Giants game. The Rangers goal song goes off in my head when I achieve small successes in life.
HEN-RIK
by BombersGmenBlueshirts25 on Apr 28, 2011 10:57 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
:)
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
Can we get off the Brooks Laich train please
Brooks Laich will not bring the same value to the Rangers that he brings to the Caps. He would absolutely fit the system but he is the type of player we already have. His numbers are inflated because of the productive players around him and the last time I checked, our leader scorer was 75th in the league in total points. He’s basically Brandon Prust and as much as I love Prust, A. We already have the real Brandon Prust and B. if we ever gave him 3.6 mill/year I’d hang myself. On a separate note, why the hell did you move the Boyle line down to 4th? They were the most consistent line this season? Finally, I would much rather see Anton Babchuck in place of Wiz. He finished 11-24-35, +14, 13 PPP, he blocks shots and has an absolute cannon
+ a million
Laich is another grinder, we don’t need that. The ONLY thing we need are first liner scorers and a d-man QB/canon.
If Moshe takes out Prospal and Laich, adds back in Fedetenko, we could afford a $4m first line winger to play with Gabby and Richards. Essentially, a Wolski contract that puts up better numbers. Gotta say I like that.
Of course Boyle is on the 4th line… If you have Richards, Stepan, and AA at center, where else could Boyle go unless Step moves to wing? Also, Boyle may have just had a career end, we won’t know until a couple of months into next season.
hmm, i like that. but what 3-4 million $ players are available that could play first line?
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
So I tried to see if Richards, Wiz and Drury can exist on the same Rangers team ....
I think I did it!
This assumes a $3M cap increase and doesn’t even take into account the fact that Zuccs, MDZ and McD have bonuses that can roll into next year which allows the Rangers even more cap flexibility. I still think Richards will be a catastrophe long term but at least he will simply slide into Drury’s slot as “designated cap killer” in three years and won’t cost any opportunities to resign the young’ns.
CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR
FORWARDS
Marian Gaborik ($7.500m) / Brad Richards ($7.250m) / Derek Stepan ($0.875m)
Brandon Dubinsky ($3.750m) / Artem Anisimov ($1.900m) / Ryan Callahan ($3.750m)
Ruslan Fedotenko ($1.200m) / Brian Boyle ($2.000m) / Brandon Prust ($0.800m)
Sean Avery ($1.937m) / Chris Drury ($7.050m) / Mats Zuccarello-Aasen ($1.750m)
/ Erik Christensen ($0.925m)
DEFENSEMEN
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Mike Sauer ($1.250m)
Ryan McDonagh ($1.300m) / James Wisniewski ($3.500m)
Michael Del Zotto ($1.087m) / Daniel Girardi ($3.325m)
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($6.875m) / Martin Biron ($0.875m)
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $62,900,000; CAP PAYROLL: $62,875,000; BONUSES: $1,487,500
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $25,000
Valentenko is the 7th D on call in the AHL
Long term, the plan is to take Drury’s and Avery’s money and use it to sign Prust, McD, MDZ, Stepan and a backup GK over the next 2 years.
Why is Wolski being bought out?
Wolski is certainly worth a low 2nd round pick or possibly a 3rd/4th pick combo.
And by alot Buckaroo means
A Marc Staal or Joe Pavelski.
I am actually convinced that Sather does buy him out, and kudos to you Captain for noticing.
by louielounz1 on Apr 27, 2011 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions
He had 65 points two seasons ago and about 45 each of the three seasons before that.
Wolski is an asset, yes, a slightly overpaid asset, but an asset nonetheless. No matter how poor a fit he may be for your team, you don’t buyout a player like that, you have to turn him into something, even if it’s a lowish pick or some longshot prospects.
You need to find someone to give you that "lowish pick" or "long shot prospect"
At this point, I’d say he’s a long shot prospect himself. It’s funny you mention it though, because I was just trying to figure out WHO might be willing to take him. At this point, I’d say maybe Florida would be the best shot. Wolski seems to play his best hockey on teams with no real expectations. He might be someone who could give a little spark to a team that’s deep in rebuilding mode. When that’s the best spin you can put on a guy, you know it’s not gonna a big market.
Call ’em up… Wolski for Bergfors it is!!!
by BuckarooClub on Apr 27, 2011 11:55 PM EDT up reply actions
Certainly not a huge market, but there is a market for him
That’s a little harsh on Wojtek, Buck. He has posted acceptable postseason numbers for both PHX and COL the last two years. The guy didn’t fit in Torts’ system. I think we all knew it was going to be an issue when the Rangers acquired him, and I think Torts even said as much about a week after the trade. He’s a fine player, just not for the Rangers.
I think you could easily pry a couple mid round picks from the Panthers for Wolski. IIRC, Florida just loaded up on picks at the deadline. If Florida is having another down year, they can always flip Wolski and his expiring contract to obtain more picks at next years deadline.
When did Torts say that? I find that a harsh thing to say about your own player just after you acquired him
by CrazyRangerFan on Apr 28, 2011 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Well, reality shows us that Wolski is actually worth a 32 year old average defenseman with a year and a half left on his contract at a cap hit of $5m per.
Would you trade a 2nd round pick for a 32 year old average defenseman with a year and a half left on his contract at a cap hit of $5m per?
Me neither.
@captain9nyr
by captain9nyr on Apr 28, 2011 12:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Your comparison is oversimplifying things.
You completely look past the fact that PHX garnered extra value from Roszival’s inflated cap hit. At the time of the trade Rozi was owed about $2.5M less in actual money than what his cap hit was, due to the fact that the Rangers frontloaded his contract. So while Rozsival’s cap hit for 2011-12 is $5M, Roszival is actually making significantly less money ($3M) than Wolski ($4M) in 2011-2012.
For cash poor teams (Phoenix), anytime they can inch their cap figure up to the salary floor without actually laying out money, that is a great deal for them.
canoenine......
….24 year old player on his third team, looking to be shipped to a fourth team….I wonder who would take a chance on him now?
Sounds like
an enigmatic player who’s last name starts with a Z…? hmmm
by louielounz1 on Apr 27, 2011 10:47 PM EDT up reply actions
you know mr. z has changed his name?
No longer Nikolai now Nikolay
Flyers take it up the ass, doo dah, doo dah, Flyers take it up the ass, all lah doo lah day.
by FIRESATHER327 on Apr 27, 2011 11:25 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
That was more of a league wide thing. Has to do with the translation of Russian characters into English, and the fact they have 33 letters in their alphabet and we only have 26. More HERE
by BuckarooClub on Apr 27, 2011 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions
Z did , and still does some stuff that blows your mind. That will keep people looking at him for a long time. If hockey had an equivilant of the Ruckers Park league, Z would be in it. Can’t say the same for Wolski.
by BuckarooClub on Apr 28, 2011 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Zherdev became a FA after the Rangers walked from his arb award and the entire league passed on him.
And in about 20 less games, just with the Rangers, Wolski produced 3 less points than Zherdev in 50+ games for the Flyers.
I’m not a Wolski fan by any means, but between him and Zherdev I’d take Wolski.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Apr 28, 2011 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Z had 16 goals/22 points in 52 games. Wolski had 12 goals, 35 points in 72 games. Wolski averaged about 1:30 more per game, but nothing major. Zherdev also makes about half of what Wolski does. It’s not worth arguing about who the better of the two is, but 16 goals for 2 mil sounds alot better then 35 points for $3.8 MIL to me.
Interesting thoughts on Zherdev though. When we walked away from his arbitration award in 2009, he was coming off a season where he put up 58 points (23 G 35 A). His arbitration award was $3.9 mil, and no one thought twice about walking away from it. No worries about a “loss of net assets”.
by BuckarooClub on Apr 28, 2011 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions
In a rare instance I’ll agree with you that Zherdev at $2M is better than Wolski at $3.8M. Zherdev probably got a contract that was more appropriate for what he produced this year and given his reputation as a skilled yet aimless player he won’t get anything more than what the Flyers gave him until he can prove he can harness his talent into at least something along the lines of what he did in 08/09.
All other things being equal, with the caveat that neither are that appealing, I’d still take Wolski.
And yes I’m fully aware that signing UFA’s doesn’t result in net loss of assets. Ironic that you’re trying to explain that to me, since you’ve been the one that seems to have difficulties with this concept when it comes to personnel management.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Apr 28, 2011 10:15 AM EDT up reply actions
And yes I’m fully aware that signing UFA’s doesn’t result in net loss of assets. Ironic that you’re trying to explain that to me, since you’ve been the one that seems to have difficulties with this concept when it comes to personnel management.
Just saying we had given up Tyutin and Backman to get Zherdev a season before we let him go, and gave up a 4th round draft pick to acquire Backman just before we traded him. We didn’t eventually get that pick back (and used it to draft Dale Weise) but had to give up picks in 2008 and 2009 that became Jani Lajunen and Nick Oliver to the Nashville Predators.
by BuckarooClub on Apr 28, 2011 3:10 PM EDT up reply actions
That’s one trade where the Rangers essentially gambled one young player for another one where both players had question marks (I know Backman and Fritsche were also involved but they were throw-ins). The Rangers needed to replace a number of forwards that off-season and felt they could afford to deal from their defense.
That’s far different from proposing trades of Gaborik+Kreider+MDZ for Nash or other trades where the Rangers give up a ton of future production for a marginal increase over what they presently have.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Apr 28, 2011 4:09 PM EDT up reply actions
it was gaborik+dubinsky+kreider+mdz for nash.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
I laid out my logic on that for Moshe, but I’ll quickly recap here. If we signed Gabby to a two year contract, no would be asking for him back this year without a HUGE pay cut. If we could cut him with no impact on the cap, I think there would be alot of people OK with that. If Gabby was a FA this season, and Slats signed him to $22 mil over 3 years, everyone would be up in arms. If we can unload him, and to the opposite conference, how is that bad?
MDZ and Kreider are both still prospects, but don’t seem likely to hit their potential in our system. MDZ doesn’t have enough “jam” for Torts, and Kreider doesn’t wanna quit school, and has never played a full season or the pro style game.
Dubi/Cally is only crucial piece we’d give up, and he’s upgraded to Nash, and we duck out of the big raises they have coming this offseason.
I don’t see how that’s a big problem for us
by BuckarooClub on Apr 28, 2011 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions
This is horrible IMO, Krieder is our top prospect you don’t unload those for an immediate upgrade unless your ready for a cup run. Second If Gaborik returns to form he would have the same production as Nash and all the while keeping Dubinsky and Del Zotto who could have a huge impact on this team. Whats from keeping Rick Nash from having a bad year next year? nothing. And if we do make that trade and Nash busts, its a huge loss, and its a huge problem.
by CrazyRangerFan on Apr 28, 2011 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions
This is EXACTLY the kind of idea I was hoping to get us beyond with a post like this
If “if’s” and “buts” were candies and nuts, then everyday would be Christmas. We can’t keep hoping and waiting, because the rest of conference, has, and will keep, passing us by. I broke down so your concerns below, and hopefully you get an idea of where I’m coming from, and what I’m using to evaluate these players, and our prospects with them
Krieder is our top prospect you don’t unload those for an immediate upgrade unless your ready for a cup run
Christian Thomas has BLOWN past Kreider. Kreider needs to flip a switch to get him back on track. His NCAA numbers are nothing close to what players like Toews, Heatley, Kessel, St. Louis, or Parise put up. Those are all 1st line guys, and they were DESTROYING competition from the get go at the NCAA level. Kreider is also the ONLY player from the first round of his draft class still playing NCAA hockey.
If Gaborik returns to form he would have the same production as Nash and all the while keeping Dubinsky and Del Zotto who could have a huge impact on this team. Whats from keeping Rick Nash from having a bad year next year?
That’s a HUGE “if”, and even IF Gabby returns to form, is finally, at 30 years old, going to decide that he’s not gonna disapear when we need him. He’s gonna finish the goals that count? As far as Nash having a bad year, it’s always a possibility, but given that the guy hasn’t played less then 75 games, or scored less then 27 goals in the last 5 seasons, I like his odds of having a good season ALOT more then Gabby’s.
As far as other players I mentioned Cally/Dubi are good but they’re gonna be $4 mil a piece next year, and I don’t think what they have is as hard to come by as the elite, game changing, players we have been missing. Everybody talks about what a great job Gordie Clark does, and how valuable all his picks are, but no one seems to have faith in him CONTINUING to find talent to feed this system, espically the supporting talent that is what he’s found for us. All of our active forward prospects are 20 goal guys right now (if that), picked up in the 2nd round or later. Maybe, if things fall into place, they have a 30 goal season or two in their career. If we can get a legit, perennial 30+ goal player, and have to give a couple of them up, it’s OK, we can find more. Sign FA vets to patch the hole, and tell Gordie what to look for.
by BuckarooClub on Apr 29, 2011 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions
I think what you’re missing is that you’re giving up 4 players for Nash. Sure, in your mind only Dubi is really something of consequence, but you’re still massively overpaying for one player.
While obviously you’re quite down on Kreider now, and even conceding that Thomas has passed him, he’s still considered one of the top 30-40 prospects in hockey. Del Zotto, even if he’s not going to hit his peak here, still has a top skill set.
Nash is a better fit for us than Gaborik, I won’t argue that, but the separation in the talent level between the two is not worth two skilled, but raw 20 year olds and our leading scorer that is entering his prime in the next year or two.
Even if you wanted to unload all 4 of those players, you can get more than just Nash for them.
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by George E. Ays on Apr 29, 2011 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m down on Kreider, because I’m disapointed in Kreider. I don’t understand WHY he passes up every young hockey players dream. The fact that he DOESN’T think he can, or want to know if he can compete against better competition makes me think he doesn’t have the mentality to make it as a top player. This kid was, and still is, regarded as a top prospect because of raw talent. That means he’s only gonna amount to anything if he can learn to refine it. We’re already seeing at the NCAA level his athleticism alone isn’t enough. Now he’s just wasting time, and valuable time at that. Our guys obviously can’t get it through his head, maybe someone else can.
MDZ is similar story, I don’t believe our system is going to get that refine his ability, and even if we do, I don’t know that he’ll ever be the right fit in Torts system. The bad blood between Torts and MDZ doesn’t make me feel good either. The longer we try and “develop” MDZ, the more distance we put between him and that rookie season, and the less valuable that season becomes.
I know it SOUNDS LIKE alot to give up, but when I suggested it (like 3 months ago) there was as many “it will never happen” responses as there were “it’s too much”. I think that if you call Scott Howson about the face of his team, you’ve gotta be prepared to blow him away.
It’s not a situation where he HAS or WANTS to move his star player, it’s us calling him, saying we like your guy, he’s awesome, but it’s obvious he’s not enough alone to make your team relevant in a division with Detroit, Nashville, Chicago and St. Louis.
The price to RENT Kovi was 2 top prospects, a #1 pick and an everyday NHL guy. The Thrashers KNEW they were losing him. Essentially we’re offering the same thing, except instead of the pick, we’re giving them Gabby and Gabby’s cap hit (which allows us to still persue Richards).
As I’ve said before I think a team like Columbus is PERFECT for Gabby. Lower expectations, less pressure, but he’ll score some goals and give them a jersey to sell and player for VS. to show in commercials when they play. He also takes the pressure off the young kids coming up, while the team improves. In two years (and with two more top 10 draft picks in the system) he comes off the books, and hopefully the kids have come far enough that they can contend.
We need a legit star, and they’re not going to come cheap, or fall into our laps. Trade is our best chance of finding one. We’ll give up some pieces, but if we really believe in Gordie Clark, we can count on him to find us more.
by BuckarooClub on Apr 29, 2011 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
I’m down on Kreider, because I’m disapointed in Kreider. I don’t understand WHY he passes up every young hockey players dream. The fact that he DOESN’T think he can, or want to know if he can compete against better competition makes me think he doesn’t have the mentality to make it as a top player. This kid was, and still is, regarded as a top prospect because of raw talent. That means he’s only gonna amount to anything if he can learn to refine it. We’re already seeing at the NCAA level his athleticism alone isn’t enough. Now he’s just wasting time, and valuable time at that. Our guys obviously can’t get it through his head, maybe someone else can.
So now you’re a mind reader? He doesn’t think he can play against better competition? That’s why he’s accepted invites for back to back WJCs, the premier tournament for his age group.
Not all players are ready to make the jump to the NHL at 18/19. How do you explain James van Riemsdyk? Two years NCAA, one year in the AHL. #2 overall pick after Patrick Kane, but the Flyers did it the right way and allowed him to move along at his own pace. Or how about Bobby Ryan? Stayed in juniors, then the AHL for most of a year then given about a quarter of a season in the NHL with barely over 10 TOI. Or look at Brayden Schenn. There is a boatload of talented players that take a patient route to developing into NHL players and ultimately benefit from that decision.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Apr 29, 2011 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions
None of those guys spent more then 2 years in the NCAA's
the Flyers did it the right way and allowed him to move along at his own pace
The Flyers moved JVR along at the pace THEY thought was right for him. All those guys made the jump from the NCAA’s 35 – 40 games to the AHL’s pro-style game and 70 game season, or were already playing it in Juniors. The Rangers have made it clear that they want Kreider to move on and further his career, and Kreider has made it clear that he wants to live in a dorm.
by BuckarooClub on Apr 29, 2011 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Buck.
I’m in college right now. And I can tell you 100% if I was in Kreider’s shoes I would stay all four years as well. College is an amazing time (best of my life so far) and I wouldn’t trade it to possibly ride a bus around all year and play for the Whale.
Obviously you hated college, but that doesn’t mean all people do. Kreider loves it, as do I.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
I didn't hate it by ANY means
I spent 7 years there I had so much fun. Before you break out the Tommy Boy jokes, it was for 2 seperate degrees. I played hockey up through college too. As much fun as I had at college I’d trade it all IN A HEARTBEAT for a CHANCE to win a Stanley Cup. Truth be told, I’d give it all up JUST to “ride a bus around all year and play for the Whale”. What BETTER scenerio is there for a hockey player then to GET PAID to play hockey? What player, who wants to play at the highest level possible, who dreams of winning a Stanley Cup, passes up the chance to play in a better league, against better competition?
by BuckarooClub on Apr 29, 2011 1:26 PM EDT up reply actions
You are forgetting...
This time last year, Wisconsin announced that McDonagh would be captain for 2010-2011 and Stepan alternate.
I am sure Kreider’s mind is not made up these guys are right, he probably wants to see if he’d make the big club.
Just because you rather leave college doesn’t mean all people would. I would get the degree and than go.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
Nothing personal
But if you were a Rangers prospect, and I heard you say that, i would be all about shipping you out of town. :)
Look at the flack European guys take for not “caring enough” about the NHL, or saying they would rather win a Gold Medal then a cup. This is pretty much the same thing. I’m a couple years shy of the veteran contract cutoff, and hardly get on the ice anymore, but I still don’t know if I’d touch the cup, given the opportunity… JUST in case.
by BuckarooClub on Apr 30, 2011 9:26 PM EDT up reply actions
I really do see where your coming from. In some cases I would definitely agree with you as well. I understand I overvalue prospects sometimes, but I feel that you undervalue them just the same.
To me, Kreider not dominating NCAA competition is somewhat alarming, but him wanting to say in college doesn’t alarm me in the least. He’s like 19-20 years old, he’s still a kid.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
I think Moshe’s comment about not wanting to ride buses in the bushes of the AHL nails the key component of the Kreider camp’s decision making process. Kreider never said he won’t join the Rangers at the end of the summer. I am pretty sure he is just waiting to see what his chances are to make the big club come August.
By committing to a PTO right after the NCAA season he would have completely shut off one of his two options.
Personally, I am not thrilled he didn’t jump right away to join the franchise as soon as possible, but at the same time I am not going to declare him a bust and decide that Kreider is a flake that lacks the mental fortitude to develop into a contributor at the NHL level.
Love the enthusiasm Buck. But look at which player has the NHL body. How many times will we draft (or sign) a kid under 6’10"… hell, under 5’10" and hope we get a Parise or a St Louis or a Gionta?
Granted, we already have Thomas and I am glad we do, but just because we have one goal scoring prospect doesn’t mean we should dump the other. How many times in recent memory have we been able to say, “We have two goal scorers coming up from our farm system and prospects.” The more the merrier.
@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."
To flip it back at you, Thomas is a little guy, who’s holding his own playing in a league that’s physical game is about as close as your going to get to the NHL. He’s scoring 50 goals, while ducking hits from NHL sized players in 70 games a season. The NHL could be the straw that broke the camels back, but I think he is showing some durability.
On the other hand we have Kreider, and everyone loves to talk about his size and strength, but he’s playing in a league where size and strength aren’t as important. What will happen to his physical game when he has to answer for a hard check, legal or not. This is a kid who’s never played a hockey game where the penalty for fighting was less then a game misconduct and mandatory suspension.
I’m not trying to get all “frankiec” on you, but if we’re going to laud him for the physical game he’s going to bring, I’d like see if he can do it in an NHL style game first. I’m not saying this kid has to be Tony Twist, but he’s going to have to learn to play a physical game in an environment where guys take it a bit more personal.
As far as when the last time we had two goal scorers coming up from our farm system and prospects, I think a better question would been when is the last time even ONE goal scoring prospect has made it out of our system.? I’m saying Kovalev.
Not trying to be a total pessimist, but sometimes I think we still put a little TOO MUCH faith in a pretty unproven “development” system. Just trying to keep it honest.
by BuckarooClub on Apr 29, 2011 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions
I’d like see if he can do it in an NHL style game first.
Nothing at the junior level comes close to the NHL. Nothing in college hockey comes close to it either. Hell, even other pro leagues don’t come close, look at the SEL’s MVP last year struggling to hold a roster spot on our team this year.
I appreciate you trying to keep it honest but I also hope you see that things are turning around (slowly but surely) in our development system. We are actually producing NHL caliber players, especially blueliners. Granted we aren’t really producing top-line talent, and I can’t remember the last time we did that (Kovalev probably) but I think there is a lot to be excited about from both Kreider and Thomas.
@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."
I was trying to compare the skill level directly, but the style of game. Thomas is small, but I like that he’s putting up the numbers he is putting up in a league with a fair share of swinging dick/meatheads.The NCAA has it’s elite guys and the rest. Some of “the rest” might bloom late, or play well enough to get a contract without being drafted, but mostly they are there to play a little hockey and get their degree. In the WHL and the OHL those bodies filling out the rosters aren’t getting a degree, there hope is to show they can hit and punch their way to $400 a week in the CHL, or hope there’s a job a mill waiting for them back home.
Of all the minor leagues, aside from the AHL, if there’s a place I’m happy to see a 5’9" kid putting up numbers, it’s the W or the O. Without jumping to the pro level, your not going to see what you can do with the big boys running at you anywhere better. By the same token, I think the NCAA’s are the softest NA league, and the shallowest talent pool, and that’s even more evident in the league’s out east. If Kreider’s gonna be a physical pressence, I want to see him do it in an NHL situation. I wanna see him go BACK into the corner after a guy stares him down or shoves him for a big hit.
I see that our system is turning around (or rather that we’re actually keeping young players long enough for them to make it to the big club) but getting enough “rah rah” and teaching condition and hustle to get mid rd picks to the show is one thing. When we prove we can actually start turning raw talent into elite players, I’ll be more excited. In the meantime, I’m more confident in a guy who seems to have figured out how to get it done himself (Thomas), then a guy who seems just as raw now as he was 2 seasons ago (Kreider) and really, I still think our best chance of either turning into a elite young player, is using them in a trade.
by BuckarooClub on Apr 29, 2011 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions
I still think our best chance of either turning into a elite young player, is using them in a trade.
I don’t like that attitude but I understand it and it makes sense if the farm system is broken, which it was only a short while ago. I think we have produced at least two elite players in recent memory (Staal and Hank) and have some real potential to produce more with some of the prospects and kids we have now.
Of all the minor leagues, aside from the AHL, if there’s a place I’m happy to see a 5’9" kid putting up numbers, it’s the W or the O
Completely agree.
If Kreider’s gonna be a physical pressence, I want to see him do it in an NHL situation.
In the World Juniors he was amazing and a physical presence, especially around the net. He was hard to check and hard to move when he had the puck and was determined. I don’t want to over-analyze the kids too much and pick which of them are doomed to failure and which are more likely to find success. The real point I am trying to make here is that this is no time to trade away our #1 pick from a year ago, trading youth and rookies for aging stars is a flawed way to build a team. The best teams are built from within with key additions, often role players or depth scoring.
@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."
Staal/Hank
I’m calling shenanigans on you giving us credit for “developing” Hank. We took him with a late pick, never played a game of hockey for Rangers affiliate, went bonkers in Europe the season before he came here. If we were “developing” Hank to be the guy he is now, what were we doing using the #6 overall pick on Montoya the season before he got here? :)
On Staal, you know I think he still has a big step to take (and that’s after 6 seasons of “development” under our system). Not gonna debate the pros and cons of him, but as I’ve said before (with players at all postions) if you sat with a bunch of hockey guys, and talked about the 10 best guys in the game right now, at a certain position, you’ll have 6 or 7 on everyones lists (guys like Lidstrom, Weber, Doughty, etc) then for those last 2 or 3 spots, you’ll probably have 15 guys. I think, at best, that’s where Staal is right now. I’m sure you’d put him definatly in that group for the last spots, but do you really think he’s in that consensus group? I think Hank is our only player who makes that cut at his position.
On Kreider
The WJC’s have good skill comp, but not the dirty junior game I think Kreider needs to show he can play. Really I wasn’t blown away by his skill game either. If he used that size or shot to muscle a couple home against Canada, that would have been eyepoping. He kinda saved his statline with a 2 goal game in the consolation. I don’t wanna be too touch on the kid, but I think we don’t just need another guy who’s pretty good, or even very good, we need one that will rise to the occasion. As I said above, I wanna see how he reacts to playing a physical game when the guy he bumps over reacts to getting hit. It’s different, it’s something he’s never dealt with.
The real point I am trying to make here is that this is no time to trade away our #1 pick from a year ago, trading youth and rookies for aging stars is a flawed way to build a team. The best teams are built from within with key additions, often role players or depth scoring
.
Going over the cup winners since the lockout, the only team NOT built around top draft picks was Detroit, and I’m not even sure that’s safe to say, since it seems like they find 7 first round picks every year. They’re not normal, and they’ve been doing it that way as long as I’ve been alive. Outside of that, you have the Pens and Hawks (built with ALOT of years of top picks). Then the Ducks and ’Canes.
The Canes had the benefit of Eric Staal (#2 overall pick) leading them in story, but signing Corey Stillman as a FA #6 overall, and the leadership of Rod Brindamour (the end result of a LONG tradition of that orgainzation flipping players) we big parts. As was Cam Ward, who turned into a steal at #25, winning the Conn Smythe as a rookie.
Finally the Ducks. Perry and Getzlaf were both late first round draft picks (like Kreider) who really broke out with that team on that cup run. They each chose to play 2 years of junior after they were drafted, came up for a year in the AHL, and won cups in their first full seasons in the NHL. Maybe if we get Kreider to the whale we’ll be so lucky? The big part of that team was the D though. The Ducks picked up Niedermayer as a UFA, and then added Pronger in trade (giving up players who were former #7 and #9 overall picks, as well as a 1st and 2nd round picks, and eventually an EXTRA 1st rd pick for winning the cup). All those young, top prospects and picks for 1 guy, but in the end that guy got them their cup, and they’ve STILL found ways to remain a top team in the West, and keep stocking up with top prospects.
If you’ve got the top talent, you can just add the role players, but, as you can see, history shows, you need that talent first.
by BuckarooClub on Apr 30, 2011 12:54 AM EDT up reply actions
I will accept your call of shenanigans on developing Hank, seeing how he was a professional in the SEL before he came to the NHL. I still think he has improved and blossomed while in New York working with Benoit though, his impact can’t be understated. Staalsy went to the All-Star game this year. It is harder to see him as “an elite talent” because of the kind of game he plays. He’s a shutdown man, and a very young and good one. I know you aren’t exactly the president of the Marc Staal Fan Club, so I will simply let that one go. Is he top 20 in the league? Undoubtedly. Top 15 How could he not be? Top 10 in the league? For many people he fits in there, even with his age.
the only team NOT built around top draft picks was Detroit
They may not have top draft picks but they have painfully smart draft picks, which is just as good isn’t it? Datsyuk, Z’berg, the Mule, Jimmy Howard etc.
If you’ve got the top talent, you can just add the role players, but, as you can see, history shows, you need that talent first.
The best way to get that talent is the NHL Entry Draft. Building a team around a young core that grows together and fills the skates of the generation of players that came before them is a tremendous recipe for success. When you deviate from that plan and it fails, which it certainly can do, you are left with the New York Rangers team from the early 2000s. We had no one to replace Leetch, Graves, Messier, and Richter and we hoped we could steal some prospect gems from other clubs in return for guys like Leetch and Graves.
We all know how that turned out. I feel like I am getting off topic here, so I apologize if I am. I understand most of what you are trying to say in terms of needing that elite talent to add role and depth players around but I still contend the best way to get that talent is to draft and develop players into those elite players. It is less expensive and more often than not more satisfying for a fanbase and an organization. I feel like you and I can go back and forth forever on this.
@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."
On the topic of talent in general
I try to use that top 10 example to make the point that even in the top 10 players, there’s a drop off. Those unamious guys are something special, then you suddenly have 20 guys in the running for 3 spots. We’ve got to get those players who are special, and count on Gordie to fill in holes.
It’s scary to think we’re going to empty the cupboard again, but the whole mentality was different in the early 2000’s. No cap, and big name free agents came in, because they are what made sure the season tickets got renewed by the corporate ticket holders. As long as we hang onto Hank, we can do what we’ve been doing as long as he has knees with out elite talent. Unless we plumet, get an absolute, blind luck, gift from god, out of nowhere player with a mid to late 1st rd pick, we’re not gonna get to the next level.
I think the closest thing to a team getting there with mid/late 1st rd picks is the Ducks, and if they hadn’t shipped out essentially 4 top 10 overall picks, to get Pronger. Getzlaf/Perry are very good players. Not ever sure if they pass the unanimous top 10 test though. Still, when you look at what they do, and how they do it, you have to think being in a locker room with guys like Pronger and Neidermayer helped them get where they are. The way Getzlaf, and espically carry themselves clearly has alot to do with looking up in the locker room their first season, and seeing Pronger reading a copy of ‘Swank", chugging whiskey, punching kittens, and whatever else it is he does. We’ve gotta get that for our guys. If we have to give up some of these guys, then so be it, if you really believe in this system, and Gordie, you have to believe there will be more prospects to come.
by BuckarooClub on Apr 30, 2011 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions
seeing Pronger reading a copy of ‘Swank", chugging whiskey, punching kittens, and whatever else it is he does.
You forgot throwing spare change at homeless people, flicking lit matches on children, and stealing hockey pucks.
@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."
Kreider leaving school is step 1. Kreider realizing there is NOTHING more important then being an incredible NHL player is Step 2.
by BuckarooClub on Apr 29, 2011 9:17 PM EDT up reply actions
awh kreider stepan and borque are all friends. maybe they can play on a line together :)
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
Its known on here that I was a fan of brining Z back.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
he did lead the team in points at the time, along with other completely hated Ranger Scott Gomez.
by CrazyRangerFan on Apr 28, 2011 1:21 PM EDT up reply actions
No one wants Drury banished to siberia more than me, but i think people are really dreaming if they think he’s being bought out. Maybe there’s a really creative way to package him in a trade to a team that has cap space and can be seduced by his “leadership” reputation (i dont even know if such a team exists – maybe LA Kings?).
As for Wolski, interesting idea, and if Sather and his team had that anaylsis in mind, all the more power to them. But I don’t see him giving up on Wolski that soon. Ultimately, $3.8M is a lot for a guy who can’t consistently get off the 4th line, but Im guessing both Sather and Tortorella think he is a better risk than Frolov at this point, and thats who I expect they will be comparing him too.
Should make for some very interesting off-season meetings between Sather and Tortorella, that’s for sure.
Glen Sather is a Hockey Genius.
http://twitter.com/ThGeneralissimo
http://twitter.com/poplosertwit
Kings have a lot of UFA/RFAs to retain, the most prominent of which is Doughty. They’re going to quickly run out of cap space once they figure sort out their own house, let alone adding massive cap hits from other teams.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Apr 28, 2011 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Really? Buying out both saves this team around $6million in cap space next year. I’d say there’s a solid chance that BOTH are bought out.
I don't always make smart personnel moves, but when I do, I prefer to open up cap space. - Glen Sather. The most interesting GM in the world.
by Mike_from_NNJ on Apr 28, 2011 9:54 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Lol +1
I listen to Enter Sandman before taking exams. I wear the exact same jersey every Giants game. The Rangers goal song goes off in my head when I achieve small successes in life.
HEN-RIK
by BombersGmenBlueshirts25 on Apr 28, 2011 10:55 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Surgery?
I forget where I read it (Brooks?) but if Drury has to have surgery during the offseason, his salary would come off the summer cap, or something like that. I’m trying to see the benefit to that on the outside chance it does happen. Only because Torts eluded to his knees during his wrap session with the media.
If that were to happen, how would that play into this scenario?
I’m not going to look into if it does or doesn’t come off the cap, but if it does, all it really allows Sather to do is spend more money while giving himself more time to fix it. Once the season started, unless Drury is on LTIR, that money goes right back on the cap.
So, in essence, it doesn’t mean dinky-doo (unless Dru will be out for a long time).
Blueshirt Banter *It's just pain.*
Member of the 'Adopt a Bolt Program.' Go Lightning!
Gotchya
It was Brooks BTW.
Here’s from the article…
CHRIS DRURY: The captain has one year at a $7.05 million cap hit remaining on his contract, a number that is not sustainable for a fourth-liner specializing in penalty killing and faceoffs. Drury was nailed to the bench for the final 13:15 of Saturday’s 3-1 Game 5 elimination loss in Washington, during which he received a team-low 6:49 overall.
A buyout would save the Rangers $3,333,333 of cap space, but would cost the team $1,666,667 in space in 2012-13 as the CBA is currently constructed.
There is this, however: If Drury requires further knee surgery prior to the June 15-30 buyout period, the Rangers would be precluded from buying him out.
by Mike_from_NNJ on Apr 28, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Interesting. There are probably a few different rules regarding that situation (buy-outs of a guy who’s contract isn’t on the cap due to injury). If he is saying ‘precluded’, then I can only guess that you’re not allowed to buy out somebody on the injured list. Only can guess that it’s because the union doesn’t want teams buying out guys with significant injuries to avoid paying for any surgery/rehab? Sounds like a lot of digging through the CBA which I don’t have the stomach for.
Blueshirt Banter *It's just pain.*
Member of the 'Adopt a Bolt Program.' Go Lightning!
Me neither.
Which is why I posted the question to the Banter. Men with stronger stomachs (& minds) then I may feel compelled & share their findings, leaving me to reap the rewards of their labor.
by Mike_from_NNJ on Apr 28, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions
In other words….
GEORGE!! HELP!!
Blueshirt Banter *It's just pain.*
Member of the 'Adopt a Bolt Program.' Go Lightning!
I’m not the CBA expert, Dave is/was.
Blueshirt Banter - Where Rangers' Fans Matter
Tracking the Rangers - Numbers don't lie. They just don't agree with you.
Twitter: RangerSmurf
by George E. Ays on Apr 28, 2011 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions
DAVE!! HELP!!
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
I think it will be a "game time decision"...
… and by game time, I mean July 1st.
First of all, get it out of your minds that ANY trade could possibly come from Drury. NO team is going to take him – or Christensen or Avery, or Gabby (and slap yourself for pondering trading away our ONLY elite/first line talent).
It is safe to say that Gilroy and Frolov will be gone and probably Eminger, McCabe, and Prospal. The cap is supposed to go up $4m.
Drury is done. He said earlier in the week that he is “comfortable” with his role here this year, ie, taking $7m to be a situational player. He will be told that he is going to be bought out and at that point will probably decide to accept the buyout, or be honorable and retire. Let’s assume the former though. Drury’s buyout with definitely come before a decision on Wolski!
You think Drury is staying and playing with us next year? Torts quotes this week:
"You have to look at where does he fit?" Tortorella said, before later adding, "Dru is getting older, that’s why he has a chronic knee." …. "Intangibles always come into evaluating," Tortorella said. "You just can’t let the intangibles override other things, too. Dru and I have a great relationship. We’ve been very honest with one another. Dru is getting older. That’s why he has this chronic knee and it’s amazing he was able to come back when he did. But we have to make decisions for what’s best for the organization moving on."It isn’t Torts decision but this is forboding for Dru.
All of that will give us enough money to resign our RFAs AND get Richards and have some left over. The availability of other players will dictate Wolski’s future. Do we have an immediate need for that extra $3.3m on July 1st? If we cannot make any other moves, keep Wolski and he can go at the trade deadline or whatever. If we can pick up a puck moving D-man like Wiesnewski or Bieksa (or Ehroff, swooon) then buy him out and do it. Or, if we can get a third legit first liner through a July 1st trade, to play with Gabby or Richards, you can buyout Wolski or include him in a trade.
We really have a lot of options, but I would love to see any of what I just laid out happen. Looking at Moshe’s cpageek layout above, you can see that Richards + a $4m forward + Wiesnewski is doable.
Do it Glen!
I guess...
I might be missing the main idea of the post but I have a hard time praising Mr. Sather for doing a great job at covering up mistakes. You could have asked any decently-knowledgeable fan before any of the signings we complain about, shown them the years/figures, and they would have laughed at you. I hope that this new cap space will be filled with useful players that the team needs at a fair price.
I would like a physical defensemen or two, or even three. Think back to the success formula for the Stanley Cup: two great offensive talents and a mix of grit, physicality, and nastiness. I know people love McDonagh but I think that should be Valentenko’s spot. He’s the same player but he has the innate physicality. I think some people get way too carried away with the youth movement and some guys are getting way too much credit.
There was a good story in the winter about how Gil Meche in the last year of a horrible contract for the Royals (12 million owed) and would be coming to camp with an ailing shoulder. Instead, he retired and the Royals were able to keep the money. Wow, a failing veteran with a bad contract who also has nagging injuries and one more year on a contract…that sounds familiar. Time to hang up the gloves and grab some tomato sauce and mozzarella.
I continue to see this number of $2m for Brian Boyle? No way he gets even close to that.
Does he deserve it? Maybe but will he get it? No chance.
Yes he had a great year. 21 goals and without him, we’re not in the Playoffs (I guess that can be said about a lot of players on this team). He’s a great defensive forward and is one of our best penalty killers (Won’t actor into decision for Glen). But at the age of 26, this is his 1st year showing any of that at the NHL level. Not to mention he severely slowed down late in the season. He did play great in the playoffs with Prust-Avery but they couldn’t score..
We also know that Glen short-strings his own RFA’s and UFA’s, EVERY year with almost ALL of them. He hates overpaying for his current players. And we all know why (Mr. Prucha).. Remember how he didn’t re-sign Sjostrom for 750k a year? Pretty sure we all would’ve signed him back for that.
This isn’t personally what I would do but based on Glen and what we know of him, I’d say Boyle gets no more then $1.4m.. But realistically he gets $1M – $1.2 M.. Probably on a 2 year deal. If he proves he can do what he did this season again, and with a little more consistency, he’ll make his cake after those 2 years.
twitter.com/NYRangers365
I pegged Boyle at $2M per season, because I think the Rangers sign him to a 3 year contract. If you are going to ask Boyle to give up two of his prime UFA seasons (2012-13 and 13-14), then you have to give him a premium. Now, if he only wants one year and then go UFA, then yeah, I think you $1M – $1.2M price tag is about right
Evil genius yes
I’m still convinced he got Brashear just so he could park his ass in the minors after what he did to Betts
Calmer than you are.
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