Things to consider about OFFER SHEETS
by dbmaven on May 27, 2011 5:36 PM EDT
Email
PrintIt seems that an annual "rite" around any blog/forum/board talking hockey ends up being about going after RFAs.
And more often than not, people forget a few simple rules.
1 - If the offer sheet (which is really a contract that the current team can either agree to, or allow the player to sign with the 'poaching' club) is successful and you "get your man", you're liable for compensation to the old club in the form of draft picks. Links are available in other threads/posts that have the current salary bands and compensatory pick information, or GOOGLE works really well.
2 - The picks have to be your own picks for the next draft, and you must have those picks available. You can't have traded the pick away. And the pick can't be another team's that you received from a trade. Example: Team "Y" swings a trade tomorrow with Dallas for the rights to Brad Richards and Dallas' 3rd round pick in 2012, and included is Team Y's 1st and 3rd round pick in 2012. After July 1st, they sign Matt Gilroy to an Offer Sheet for 1.5mm. Oops! They can't, because 1.5mm requires a 3rd round pick to go to the Rangers if successful, and they just traded it for Richards' rights, and they can't use Dallas' 3rd rounder. Them's the rules.
3 - A club must submit a Qualifying Offer (edit: or file for arbitration) in order to retain negotiating rights with the player. If they do not submit a qualifying offer (edit: or file for arbitration), the player becomes an Unrestricted Free Agent
4 - For players earning less than $1mm on their 'old' contract, the QO must be 5 or 10% higher depending on what they were earning. If the old contract salary was $1mm or greater, the QO must be the same as the old value. For example, since Matt Gilroy's salary was 2.1mm, if the NYR extend a QO, it must be $2.1 or higher. It cannot be lower (thus the suspicion that the NYR will allow him to become a UFA). So too would the QOs for Callahan and Dubinsky match their current annual salary. Mike Sauer, being on a sub-$1mm contract, would be required to get a 10% raise based on his $500k salary last season (to $550k).
More after the jump:
5 - Either a player or a club can request Salary Arbitration. A club can request it only once in a player's RFA career. A player can request it as many times as they like if their contract has expired.
I won't go into the detailed rules of arbitration - that would need to be a separate encyclopaedia. For the purposes of this discussion, if a team/player elect arbitration, the outcome is either: A) the arbitrator's decision is accepted by the club and becomes the contract or B) the club declines. At that point the player can declare himself an Unrestricted Free Agent (this is "the Zherdev Principle").
Edit: If a PLAYER elects arbitration, the team can A) accept the arbitrator's decision and tender an SPC (Standard Players Contract) for the amount/term specified, or B) notify the League and player/agent that they do not intend to offer an SPC. The player automatically becomes an Unrestricted Free Agent. (This is the actual "Zherdev Principle").
If a CLUB elects arbitration - the arbitrator's decision is binding. A club cannot walk away from an arbitration award that they initiated.
The term of the SPC is determined by the party against whom the action was brought. In other words, if a PLAYER elects arbitration, the CLUB will select either a one or two year term for the outcome. Conversely, if the CLUB elects to take a player to arbitration, the PLAYER determines whether the contract will be one or two years in duration.
6 - Ways to work around all these rules. The NYR did it when Hank's last contract was up. Somewhat hamstrung by salary cap, they worked out a relatively cheap interim deal that got him off the RFA streets without going to arbitration. The deal was effectively that they would do a 'contract extension' come January when the rules ease and the 'new contract' doesn't impact the current season cap hit. Something like this could come into play with teams like the NJD with Parise, or even the NYR again with someone like Sauer.
Or teams can do "the Zherdev Principle" and just say "No" (for player-elected arbitration).
7 - Offer Sheets are rare - and successfully getting the guy you want is even rarer. Since the current rules went into effect with the CBA, only one (1) RFA was successfully poached - Edmonton getting Dustin Penner from Anaheim. And a total of six were attempted (the other 5 matched by the rights-holding team).
Hopefully, this helps those with RFA aspirations to understand the fundamentals, and why many people say "don't waste your time"
85 comments
|
6 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
+1 it gets annoying when people actually think its likely that we could poach a top notch RFA from another team ala Parise.
The thing with Parise is that it’s more about MAKING the offer, and trying to force NJ’s cap strapped hand, then it is about actually thinking we can get him . If we lose Dru, and have the cap space, make Lou shake things up to try to hold onto everyone.
by BuckarooClub on May 28, 2011 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
It can, if you put yourself in a similar spot. If we can screw up a team were going to have to worry about fighting for a playoff spot, I’d say it’s worth the risk. Also, I know it’s a bit of an “old boys network” among the GM’s, but Lou completely screwed up front loaded contracts for everyone in the league with the first try contract for Kovi, so I’d say he has it coming.
by BuckarooClub on May 28, 2011 1:23 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not just a one-way street.
Using Parise as an example, he has to be willing to negotiate a contract with another club. He has to effectively agree on the contract, and sign it, in order to put the NJD ‘on the clock’ to match it.
Both the player and the ‘other’ club have to be willing to go down the path of agreeing to a contract – and they have to be willing to deal with the consequences if the owning club matches it. It’s not like the NYR or any other club can just float an offer out there and force Lou’s hand.
Lou is not going to lose Parise – if he thinks someone is going to try to poach – he’ll go to arbitration, and accept the one year deal as a consequence, then negotiate a contract extension starting in February 2012. Besides the fact that I don’t think Parise would even talk to the NYR.
Why don't you think Parise would listen?
Not say I have any inside information otherwise, but it doesn’t seem that the Devs would be offering him anything another team couldn’t. It’s not like Parise is from Jersey, or is going to a team in the middle of nowhere. Lou has a bit of a rep for being cheap, and I think unless you the owners step in and push Lou to pay up, he’ll keep being cheap.
Considering the ownership pushed Lou into going after Kovalchuk I think it is their on their agenda to hold on to a talent like Parise who will take some of the pressure away from Kovalchuk. I suppose that they could choose to invest in one and not the other, but why spend big on only Kovalchuk when you can keep Parise on the team for a much more reasonable contract.
You are right about there not being any real reason for him to stay in New Jersey if there is an attractive offer from elsewhere. Another factor is the fact that Lemaire isn’t going to be there… if Jacques was still there I think that Parise would want to stay, but because he isn’t still there and there is now a coaching vacancy I would understand Parise wanting to leave. Still, the Devils have the inside track on signing Parise and trying to convince him to stay in New Jersey and try to be there for the change of culture that team is going to have to go through in the post-Brodeur era.
My gut tells me he is going to stay in New Jersey, but only because RFA poaching is rarely successful and teams simply don’t let players like Parise slip away without throwing everything they can afford (and sometimes more) at them.
@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."
I'm with you
And like I said above, I don’t think that the odds of us GETTING Parise are as good as our odds of putting our nose in and making it tough for the Devils is. I agree that there’s some differences in philosophy between Lou and the owners. If there’s a threat, realistic or otherwise, that they could lose Parise, and the owners get involved, Parise is gonna get alot more cash. Left to his own devices, I imagine Lou negotiates something much more in the Devils favor.
I get that there’s never been alot of RFA movement, but it has to start somewhere. The same way that there wasn’t cap-skipping, front loaded contracts until Hossa got his. The biggest fear with a Offer Sheet is that a team could come back and put you in a similar position, but I don’t that see that being a problem for us anytime in the near future. If we can force someone elses hand, that’s often. If we can screw things up for the Devils, even better.
by BuckarooClub on May 29, 2011 12:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Considering we have Sauer, Dubi, Cally, Boyle, AA, and Gilroy as RFAs (off the top of my head) other teams could easily put us in the hurt locker with a bidding war. Thankfully none of those guys are nearly as interesting and attractive as Zach Parise is to try and go after.
@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."
Thankfully none of those guys are nearly as interesting and attractive as Zach Parise is to try and go after.
My point exactly. Any offer over $3.1 per for any of those guys, and it nets a 1st and a 3rd in return. I’m sure it’s not the popular response, but I’d say if you could get a 1st and a 3rd for any of those guys, you’ve got to consider it.
by BuckarooClub on May 30, 2011 7:38 AM EDT up reply actions
seriously? the value of a first and a third is roughly kris versteeg. To settle for it for dubi or cally would be flat out absurd.
by Ahmad Bradshaw on Jun 4, 2011 5:59 PM EDT up reply actions
Frankly, because the discussion is moot – he’ll never get the opportunity. NJD will select arbitration if a deal can’t be worked out in advance.
by dbmaven on May 28, 2011 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
+1
Bingo.
@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."
That's still not a bad thing
With Parise, or even better with Weber, if we can use an offer sheet to push a player on the brink of being a UFA into the arbitration, resulting in them getting a one year deal, then hitting the open market next year, that’s great. Next year Dru is 100%, without question, and available to spend on a UFA, seeing the market can’t hurt us.
by BuckarooClub on May 30, 2011 7:47 AM EDT up reply actions
There needs to be an "offseason guide"
explaining some of the more complex rules in the NHL offseason frenzy and this needs to be part of that
"Don't look now, but there's one too many people in this room and I think it's you." Groucho Marx
In Prust We Trust
"Kovalev would work with Tortorella like a kitty would work in a microwave.
A lot of smoke and desperate clawing at the door. It wouldn’t work. It would just be a big, hot mess." -Dig Deep
Follow me @8kpower
Going to rec this and I suggest others do so that it becomes a recommended FanPost and can be lingering at the top of the list for as long as possible. I want it to be handy when someone brings up poaching RFAs.
@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."
by Dig Deep on May 29, 2011 5:04 PM EDT reply actions 1 recs
Poach Setoguchi, Parise, and as many restricted free agents as possible...
You do realize, of course, that there’s no harm in fantasizing about this stuff.
Of course not. But there is also too much of a “good” thing and we are already pretty close to that in my opinion. I totally understand the desire to play GM and express what you would and wouldn’t do if you were the one with the cigar in your mouth calling the shots, but we have to be realistic about things like RFA and understand that even if we fantasize about getting someone like Parise it would cost us an arm and a leg.
@DigDeepNYR
"I like a man who grins when he fights." -Sir Winston Churchill
"It's just pain." -Brandon Prust | "In Prust we Trust."
But we do HAVE to get someone like that
I think that talking about the possibility of using our RFA play to force the hand of another team is TONS more realistic then all the posts suggesting that Kreider and Grachev are going to lead us to a cup. Not trying to be a downer, just trying to be realistic. We have unbelievable goaltending, but infront of that, it’s not much more then a “strong supporting cast” at best, and projecting anyone in the system to fill the top talent roll is a bit of a stretch.
As I’ve said above, I just like to see us use the POSSIBILITY of an offersheet to force a team into arbitration with Parise, or even better Weber, resulting in either player getting a nice contract this season, and becoming a UFA next season. We can’t wait for these guys to fall from the sky, we’ve got the cash, it time we used to big stack to lean on the little guys, instead of acting like a small market team, hoping and waiting for players to fall into our laps.
by BuckarooClub on May 30, 2011 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, but.....
…it’s pretty silly overall to act like any of these “proposals” will ever occur in real life…..that is the point that DBMaven and Dig are trying to make here. Why waste time and effort even typing posts about it?
As much as I’d love to see the Rangers inflate Parise’s ultimate salary for the Devils, it’s a pipe dream to think that Sather will force Lou’s hand in any way….GMs have to work with each other, they all have long memories, and there is a tacit agreement among them to stay away from each other’s RFAs.
Literally nothing that is proposed in these type of situations ever comes to pass for the NY Rangers….but thanks for indulging in empty fantasy nonetheless.
Prole art threat.
They gotta come up with SOMETHING to do with the team until we can get our hands on players of the level that we're discussing here
What’s the alternative, sit on our hands and wait for an elite player to fall from the sky? Everyone whines and whines about the FA’s Slats has signed in the past, but there’s nothing we can do about that. Atleast here, the question is, what isn’t Sather doing something he HAS control over. Can we “poach” them… probably not, but as I said above if we can force players into arbitration, making sure they’ll be UFA’s in the upcoming offseason, why not.
As far as having to “work with each other”, making a qualifying offer isn’t much different then making a pitch to a UFA a team wants to bring in. It’s something that hasn’t been used alot, but like everything else, it has to start somewhere. With Jersey, you’re looking at a team we never deal with anyway. Our relationship with them didn’t stop us from offering contracts to Gomez and Holik, why would it be any different with Parise?
by BuckarooClub on May 30, 2011 1:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I have to agree with this. If it was another team like San Jose I wouldn’t want to go after Rfa players and cut ties but its our rival. It will do nothing but refuel a rivalry that has been fizzling out, I haven’t truely hated Jersey since they swept us in our first playoffs after the long drought. They just seemed to lay down and die after that series for us. Our rivalry with the caps seems more real then with Jersey.
Trying for parise will piss off a rival and if they retaliate and try and take one of ours it will make a good rivalry again that has been stale
by Pballer505 on May 30, 2011 2:44 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
it is different because Parise is an RFA
Again, the point here is that teams rarely go after each other’s RFAs. If you think that Sather will go after Parise, go ahead and think it—I ain’t trying to stop you, I am merely pointing out that you spend a lot of time making proposals for the Rangers that I feel are improbable at best, impossible at worst, and that this latest idea falls into that category for me.
And as far as the concept of GMs laying off each other’s RFAs, there is no proof of course—but the actions of GMs over the last few offseasons speak pretty loudly in terms of how they view this process. Averaging one offer sheet per season for RFAs since the lockout is a trickle rather than a flood….
Prole art threat.
by greifi griffie on May 30, 2011 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions
It's not your time and effort being wasted, so why do you care?
I don’t think anyone really thinks this will occur. On the Restricted Free Agents post, I wrote
I’ll take Zach Parise for 7 million, please
Because the Rangers and Devils don’t trade anyways.
And for the rest of my fantasy, sign Brad Richards, trade Stepan, this year’s first round and one of the second round picks to Colorado for Paul Stastny.
Someone do the math and make it work.
I’m fairly certain most people realize what they’re writing isn’t necessarily feasible or going to happen… Is it really that serious that you need to condemn people for writing something as innocuous as what they’d like to see with the future of the Rangers?
It is your time to waste, go ahead and waste it. I’m not here to stop you, merely to point out that a lot of people who comment here spend a lot of time talking about things that will not occur. If you are offended that I think speculation is pointless, then so be it. I am not offended by your opinions, I just think that much of the trade rumors/free agency rumors stuff is baseless and a waste of everybody’s time.
Prole art threat.
by greifi griffie on May 30, 2011 4:05 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not offended at all. Nor do I think you are/ should be offended by what I said. You missed what I was saying. I just wonder why people rail against others posting about something so harmless.
Is it really that serious is what I’m saying?
You guys really seem to be upset.
merely to point out that a lot of people who comment here spend a lot of time talking about things that will not occur.
Again, why do you care what other people are spending their time doing. It is an unfair judgment to say that the people who wrote various FanPosts on what they’d like to see is a waste of time. It’s their time. I’m sure they enjoyed doing what they did, or they were bored, or… who cares?
Really man, you cats need to get over yourselves.
I don’t think it’s an unfair judgment at all to say that stuff that isn’t going to happen isn’t worth getting worked up about. That’s my point. Don’t really know how that means I need to get over myself, but hey—think what you want, and I’ll think what I want. We can leave things at “whatever”.
Prole art threat.
by greifi griffie on May 30, 2011 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Dustin Penner AND Kessel were both signed thru offer sheets. Sorry had to add that in there, how do you forget that one?
Yes they were, you’re right—but that still doesn’t change the average of one offer sheet per offseason for RFAs. In a 30-team league with a large number of UFA players each offseason, that is still a pretty small percentage.
Prole art threat.
by greifi griffie on May 30, 2011 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions
because no one likes uncle fester?
"Don't look now, but there's one too many people in this room and I think it's you." Groucho Marx
In Prust We Trust
"Kovalev would work with Tortorella like a kitty would work in a microwave.
A lot of smoke and desperate clawing at the door. It wouldn’t work. It would just be a big, hot mess." -Dig Deep
Follow me @8kpower
Kessel did not sign an offer sheet. Kessel was traded to the Leafs.
Blueshirt Banter - Where Rangers' Fans Matter
Tracking the Rangers - Numbers don't lie. They just don't agree with you.
Twitter: RangerSmurf
by George E. Ays on May 30, 2011 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions
But...
The offer sheet started the negotiations. Honestly, if we could sell a bit of the farm, and keep the picks to replenish it, I’d be even better with that.
by BuckarooClub on May 30, 2011 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Just to clarify
I think this is something that would work better with Weber then Parise. Maybe the run changed things, but if there’s ANY possibility Weber is not keen on returning to Nashville, I hope we’re throwing our hat in the ring.
by BuckarooClub on May 30, 2011 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions
The threat of the offer sheet started it. Kessel never signed one.
Blueshirt Banter - Where Rangers' Fans Matter
Tracking the Rangers - Numbers don't lie. They just don't agree with you.
Twitter: RangerSmurf
by George E. Ays on May 30, 2011 8:53 PM EDT up reply actions
I don’t understand where you get this from – there’s was no “threat of an offer sheet”.
Kessel’s contract had expired, and he had knee surgery that was keeping him sidelined during the first part of the season. Boston had cap ‘issues’ and were trying to keep their options open. They also knew that if they went to arbitration Kessel would probably get a cap-killing award. It wasn’t until September that the trade with Toronto went down.
For that matter, Brian Burke would have been better off if he HAD gotten Kessel to sign an Offer Sheet – he would have only given up a 1st, 2nd and 3rd round pick in the 2010 draft.
Instead, he gave up the 2010 1st and 2nd, and his 2011 1st. All of which lends credence to the “GMs generally won’t do offer sheets”.
Parise/Devils is a completely different situation. If the cap goes to 63.5mm, they’re sitting with 52.1 on the books, and need a backup keeper (i.e. cheap!), a sixth and maybe seventh d-man and Parise. I think Lou can do that handily with 11mm to work with.
Bottom line – if a deal can’t be worked out in advance between them, he’ll go to arbitration to keep Parise in the fold for a year. It’s preemptory to take him off the market.
Think you replied to the wrong post on part of this
I never said anything about the “threat” of an offer sheet, that was George, but I think he and I were both on the same path. Knowing it was looming in the room led Boston and Toronto to work something out.
I’m not disagreeing with you about how hard it would be to actually SIGN a player to an offer sheet. I’m also agreeing with you that it would get to arbitration before anything else happened. What I’m saying is that if Slats showing interest in the POSSIBILITY of the offer sheet puts a bigger number in a players head, and leads to the team taking them to arbitration, getting rid of that players last RFA year and making them a possible UFA next year, that’s worth getting involved. The only way we are getting the players we need in the near future is through Free Agency or trade. The more guys we can push into the free agent market, the better.
by BuckarooClub on May 30, 2011 10:02 PM EDT up reply actions
I know exactly to which post I replied.
The offer sheet started the negotiations.
There was no offer sheet.
Burke SHOULD have gone that route – it would have saved him this year’s 1st round pick. But apparently – Kessel would not go down that path. Or Burke wouldn’t. We’ll likely not know anytime in the near future.
With 11mm in pocket presuming the cap does go to 63.5mm, Lou has plenty of flexibility to give Parise a contract that will net a 5-6mm cap hit over a series of years without breaking the bank. In the 2nd half of the season the Devils showed that personnel was not the issue with the team, it was coaching.
As I’ve said many times in the past, I will be absolutely astounded if Sather goes down the RFA path. I just do not see it happening – so I discount any rumors or ‘theoreticals’ that start with RFAs and Offer Sheets.
Burke would have had to re-acquire his own 3rd rounder to use an offer sheet.
5-6 mil would be ok for Lou to swallow, but if that deal could be pushed north of 6 mil, it gets harder. The Devs have 4 defensemen under contract, and need a backup goalie as well as any help/insurance they want up front. It’s also tough to ask a guy to take a ‘home town discount’ when other left winger is pulling down 10 mil per year.
While you might be “astounded” if Slats uses his RFA opportunity, my thought is why aren’t more people up in arms if he DOESN’T. There are two RFA’s on the market, Parise and Weber, both of who become UFA’s next season if they get taken to arbitration, and who could fill HUGE voids for us. All I’m asking Slats to do is show a bit of interest, in an effort to assure ONE of those two get to arbitration, and are possibly UFA’s next season. I don’t think thats a crazy idea.
by BuckarooClub on May 31, 2011 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions
First: Who’s pulling down 10mm/year on the Devils???
Second: From a businessman’s perspective –
I can screw a competitor once. That automatically makes it nigh on impossible to partner in the future.
Or I can lay back, let nature take its course, and leave open the possibility, no matter how slim, of future working relationships. An example would be a 3 way trade that’s mutually beneficial. Given Sather’s ability to make trades that are seemingly impossible to pull off, is it any wonder that he’d choose the latter course?
Reality – what a concept. Lou will do whatever it takes to keep Parise, even if it comes down to a back-loaded deal with an extra year or two on it.
“Showing interest” is meaningless. If the club currently owning the rights until July 1st wants to bring a player back – either for one year, or more – they’re going to find a way to do it. If they’re not interested, they apply the Zherdev principle. Any other club in the league is going to be “interested” in Zack Parise – roflmao.
First: Who’s pulling down 10mm/year on the Devils???
They’ve got this guy, called Illya Kovalchuk. Maybe you heard of him??? There’s was a couple articles in the paper about his contract last summer. 2011-2012 is his the last season he’ll likely play in the NHL for less then 7 digits a season. He pulls down $10 mil a year, or more through 2018 after that, and then most likely heads to the KHL at 36.
Second: From a businessman’s perspective –
I can screw a competitor once. That automatically makes it nigh on impossible to partner in the future
Yes, because we do so much wheeling and dealing with the Devs, or any of our division rivals for that matter, that this would totally shut that trade outlet down.
Given Sather’s ability to make trades that are seemingly impossible to pull off, is it any wonder that he’d choose the latter course?
As long as we don’t screw over the ‘yotes, Slats won’t ice any of his contacts. As far as the other teams go, as long there’s a GM looking to make a deal to cost him his job, Slats will call him, and find a way to unload his crap players.
Lou will do whatever it takes to keep Parise, even if it comes down to a back-loaded deal with an extra year or two on it.
Couldn’t agree with you more, although I think the new owners are REALLY the ones who will do whatever it takes to keep Parise, including getting bluffed into overpaying. If Parise gets his money, and it’s back loaded so it doesn’t hurt until later, or he becomes their own Chris Drury, that’s great. Better then letting NJ just have there cake and eat it too.
"Showing interest" is meaningless
Not at all, this happens in baseball all the time. Teams throw there hat into the mix to drive up the price of players and block rivals from getting players they want. Look at the Yanks and Red Sox. If the goal is just to push the Devils hand, or try to get the player into a one year arbitration deal, that makes them a UFA next season, when all it takes is money to land them, then interest is huge.
To say “any other club in the league is going to be ‘interested’ in Zach Parise” isn’t really true. There’s plenty of clubs with with their own players, and teams built around them, who might appreciate Parise’s skills but not have the cash or space to add him. Others might love him, but not be teams he wants to play for or cities he wants to play in. I’m not trying to say that I know he wants to be here, but showing him WE want HIM to be here, in a legal way can’t hurt. It might be just what it takes to get a player we’re interested in to play out their arbitration contract, and keep their options open. As I’ve said before, I think we’d be even better served going this route with Weber, who brings us EVERYTHING we are lacking on our blueline.
by BuckarooClub on May 31, 2011 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions
Ummm…..Maybe you should actually read the stuff you link to.
Kovalchuk didn’t make 10 mil. this year, and won’t next year either.
Hmmm…..maybe that was engineered that way so they could resign Parise?
Nothing anyone in the Rangers’ organization does is going to force the Devils’ organization into doing, or not doing, what it plans to do with Parise. That’s my story, and I’m sticking to it.
I’m done – I agree to disagree – you can if you’d like.
I said …
2011-2012 is his the last season he’ll likely play in the NHL for less then 7 digits a season. He pulls down $10 mil a year, or more through 2018 after that,
The numbers in Kovi’s deal even out to roughly $10 mil per for the years he’s expected to honor. It’s a bit less, after the league stepped in, and made them modify it. That was what Kovi made it clear he wanted. It wasn’t designed to fit Parise in, it was designed to spread out the $10 mil per Kovi wanted.
As I’ve said time and again, I don’t think we can land any of these players with offers, just that can either force their teams to overpay, or convince them to roll the dice with the one year arbitration contract, and know that there’s a big reward waiting at the other end. Agreeing to disagree is fine by me.
by BuckarooClub on May 31, 2011 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions
To clarify my position,
Disclaimer: my memory sucks monkey ass, so I admit I could be way off
I believe that Toronto was prepared to offer sheet Kessel, Boston was ready to match at the level (whether it was the $5.4m he signed for or something else, I dunno). With that in mind, the two teams struck a deal such that Boston got the extra 1st rounder as compensation.
Blueshirt Banter - Where Rangers' Fans Matter
Tracking the Rangers - Numbers don't lie. They just don't agree with you.
Twitter: RangerSmurf
by George E. Ays on May 31, 2011 7:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Boston was
They didn’t have their own 3rd rounder as I recall, meaning the would have had to trade to get it back, then make the offer.
by BuckarooClub on May 31, 2011 8:40 AM EDT up reply actions
No
George is right. Burke went through a lot of effort to get the Leafs own 2nd rounder back.
The threat of an offer sheet was real to start negotiations.
Boston said they would match any offer sheet.
Kessel wasn’t going to sign with Boston (either for what they were offering or b/c he didn’t want to play there)
Both Nashville and Toronto were in negotiations, Burke had to offer an extra 1st round pick (and less a 3rd) from what an offer sheet would have cost.
Burke wanted the player, not to screw Boston’s cap. He overpaid (as everyone in the league knows) but he got the player he wanted.
Crazy would be NOT overanalyzing everything.
Kessel wasn’t signed to an offer sheet, only Penner was. And wasn’t Niemi signed to an offer sheet? Or was it the Blackhawks not winning arbitration?
Proudly suffering as a Ranger fan.
"C'mon, vagina is my 3rd favorite hole." -Drama
Blackhawks didn’t win arbitration so they let Niemi become UFA
by CrazyRangerFan on May 31, 2011 2:08 AM EDT up reply actions
Hjarmalsson was signed to an offer sheet, the Hawks matched.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Jun 1, 2011 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions
I keep seeing Setoguchi, Weber, Parise, If Im going to pizz off a Gm, It would be Stevie Y by Poaching Stamkos. I have not seen his name on this anywhere?
Stamkos is still a long way from UFA. With Weber and Parise you have guys who are a year away from UFA, so the teams start looking at the possibility of getting what they can, or taking them to arbitration and squeezing a year from them, then knowing they’ll be a UFA. With Setogucci, your probably only looking at 1st and 3rd compensation, so it’s not too steep a price, and honestly might seem worth it to the Sharks.
by BuckarooClub on May 31, 2011 11:04 PM EDT up reply actions
But all the same rules apply to Stamkos….correct? If he is not signed by TBL by July 1st he is an open target for an offer sheet. If I were giving out draft picks over an offer sheet, it would be Stamkos…..no matter the cost. I don’t think that there is a better player available through UFA/RFA for years to come. I find it surprising this deal was not made by Stevie Y the second the Eastern finals were done. I can dream BIG can’t I? LOL
Would it be possible
That Stevie tries to poach Drury in retaliation? j/k
Absolute Worst Ranger Fan!!!!!!....yet incredibly realistic and usually correct.
Not trying to shoot you down, just pointing out the difference. I think that with Stamkos, there’s no question the deal will get done, but probably a bit of negotiating about how long it’s for. Let everyone relax, work out the details, and announce it after the season, so the lightning and their new uni’s can have their day in the sun after the playoffs.
Found an interesting comment from one of the premier GMs in the league
Ken Holland, of the Detroit Red Wings
"I think it’s a bit of an effort in futility because if you sign an offer sheet to a restricted (free agent) at the going rate, the team’s going to match,‘’ Holland said after the press conference announcing Brian Rafalski’s retirement. "The only way you get these players is if you pay them way beyond what they’re worth. That’s really not what the cap world is all about. The cap world is about finding players that play beyond what you pay them.’’
(emphasis added)
He's talking about how to "get" these players
The arguement I’ve been making is that we can force their team to overpay, or force them into arbitration, making either Parise or Weber a UFA next season
by BuckarooClub on Jun 1, 2011 10:55 PM EDT up reply actions
It’s not because he’s philosophically opposed to it, he just thinks it’s a waste of time or would be cost prohibitive, since the player’s team can match any offer or receive compensatory draft picks.
This is where Holland and I agree – and you appear to disagree.
There’s no “forcing a team to overpay” – that’s only in fantasy leagues and apparently in your own “logic”. As for the other ‘fantasy’ – nothing stops Lou from signing a long term deal after next January with Parise – long before UFA status comes to reality. Arbitration does not guarantee you’ll see him available in July 2012.
But it would be the NYR luck to sign Parise to a ridiculous (i.e. overpaid – see above) offer sheet, and have Lou laugh his ass off all the way to the 2012 draft with 3 or 4 of NYR draft picks, and stuck with another DruRosziRedden contract albatross – hamstrung by being outmaneuvered against the cap.
Not if they play it right
Parise at 2 years 14 mil. Or even for Drury’s money at one year if he retires. It isn’t a deal, but it’s still better then what the Devs are gonna see with the 1,2,3 picks we give them. A UFA can still sign a deal after arbitration, but after hearing their team highlight their flaws at the hearing, the price probably won’t be cheaper.
We just gave up 2 second rounders and a prospect for a guy we (and he himself probably) can only HOPE has a career even CLOSE to as successful as Weber or Parise have had ALREADY. We need top 3 talent if we wanna be relevant.
by BuckarooClub on Jun 1, 2011 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
So, let me see if I’ve got this right:
1 – you believe that Lou won’t sign Parise before July 1, and won’t take him to arbitration if he doesn’t sign him by then.
2 – given that he’s an available, non-arbitration RFA, the Rangers should sign him to an offer sheet for a 2 yr deal @ 7mm per – and be willing to give up the compensation draft picks for 2012.
Am I reading you correctly ? That would also lead one to believe that you’re banking on Drury retiring or being bought out and, and the same (buyout) with Wolski, since those $$$ will be necessary to cover the Offer Sheet cap hit.
Yes ?
Let me make this as clear as possible. I would like to see the Rangers doing everything, this side of the NHL tampering rules, to show an interest in Parise or Weber, hoping to stall any negotiations, or get the team to push for arbitration, that will result in either player signing a one year deal, and being eligible for UFA status next year.
So, to answer your questions….
1. I think Lou could be in for some sticky negotiations with Parise. I don’t see how his agent doesn’t start by brining up Kovi’s deal, and suggesting that his client isn’t greedy, and simply wants 8 mil per season. If they take him to arbitration, he gets a one year deal and becomes a UFA next season. Lou can certainly negotiate an extension during the season, and that should be fun after Parise and his agent got to hear every bad thing the Devils can say about him at the arbitration hearing.
2. I think 14 over 2 years is a perfect offer. That’s going to make him cheaper then Gabby and only cost us a 1st,2nd, and 3rd round pick. I don’t think it’s really enough of a blow away offer to make the Devs give up on him, but it forces them into a deal where they have to pay him now, and can’t backload to get around their salary crunch. It leaves them with only 3 mil to sign two defensemen and a back up goalie, and puts a serious crunch on Lou, but he’s gotta do it, cause Parise is still worth more then 3 picks.
I don’t know how you can be so concerned about “reading me correctly” since I think I’ve been very clear that our ability to make extend these offers is DEPENDANT on Dru retiring. If we have to buy him out, I’ll be happy he’s gone, but I don’t think it will give us enough cap freedom to take on a 7 mil contract AND pursue Richards. With Wolski, I don’t know why we WOULDN’T buy him out. It’s gonna cost us PENNIES, and I don’t see him ever living up to what he’s being paid. Wolski served his purpose, he got us out of Rozi’s deal, now we can dump him and move on.
Why in the world would Parise take even an offer sheet for a 2 year deal which means he’s forfeiting one year of UFA status during his prime years?
You really think if he goes for more than a 1 year deal to fulfill his last year as a RFA that he’s only going to take just 1 extra year? If entertains the thought of a multiyear deal it’s going to be one that sets him up for the next decade (plus).
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Jun 2, 2011 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions
I don’t want to act like I’m harboring any sort of inside information, but I don’t think anyone is going to give him a one year sheet. I also don’t think anything the Devils are going to offer will give him $7 mil per in either of the next two years. Coming back from knee surgery, the chance to make $7 mil per for the next two seasons (one of them an RFA year) is a pretty good deal. Show the league you’ve still got it, and you can get your long term deal at 28. Also, that gets you into the next CBA, so you know what you’re really making – not signing long term and getting hit by “roll backs” if that happens.
Also, Parise becomes an RFA on July 1st, the arbitration deadline is July 6th. If the OFFER pushes the Devs to go for arbitration, that’s a win for us, as I explained above.
by BuckarooClub on Jun 2, 2011 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
They can file for arbitration, and give themselves exclusive negotiating rights between the filing and the hearing. It’s what they did with Zajac, who never saw a hearing.
Moral: filing arbitration does not guarantee Parise signs a 1-year deal, leaving him available for us.
Blueshirt Banter - Where Rangers' Fans Matter
Tracking the Rangers - Numbers don't lie. They just don't agree with you.
Twitter: RangerSmurf
by George E. Ays on Jun 2, 2011 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
filing arbitration does not guarantee Parise signs a 1-year deal, leaving him available for us.
I completely understand that, but a short term offer of 7 mil per gives the Devs and Parise something to talk about during the time between when they file and the hearing. I think people are underestimating the importance of him being able to grab a big chunk of cash next season, before the new CBA, and having to pay him next season is what messes up the Devs lineup.
I’m not saying any of these suggestions are done deals, but it doesn’t cost Slats a thing to make the offer, and the upside can be huge for us.
yes… because our big fuckin focus this offseason should be giving the Devils “something to talk about” with their ‘franchise’ player.
This conversation is fucking ridiculous. None of this will have any fucking bearing on what happens with RFA’s and Sather. I can guaran-fucking-tee you that Sather will NOT be throwing an offer sheet at Parise this offseason. And you know what? I couldn’t care less. We have nothing to be “up in arms” about regarding this situation.
Let’s get real, and possibly discuss some realistic improvements this organization MIGHT take in the coming months.
Let’s get real, and possibly discuss some realistic improvements this organization MIGHT take in the coming months
I can’t say I quite understand why this is such a hot topic either, but people keep replying, so I give them a response. As far as “realistic improvements” I’m not sure that any we can make in free agancy (even if we get Richards) are enough alone to make us anymore then the bubble playoff team we’ve been. The Devils show up playing like the team they were in the second half, and we might find ourselves outside of the playoff bubble. If there’s a chance we can make things stickier for them, I don’t understand why we don’t.
Gaborik got 5 years with his injury issues.
Aside from his injury this year, Parise has never played less than 81 games. He doesn’t need to show anyone that he’s still got it.
For someone of his pedigree, it’s not about his annual salary, it’s about length and overall contract value.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Jun 2, 2011 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions
Gaborik got 5 years with his injury issues.
And how has that worked out for us? If Gabby was a UFA this season, no would want him back for the 22.5 mil were paying him over the next 3 years. Lou is the Anti-Slats.
For someone of his pedigree, it’s not about his annual salary, it’s about length and overall contract value
I don’t disagree, but I don’t think the extra year is that big a deal, since he’d be making 7 mil in one of his RFA years. He hits the open market at 28 and, with two more good seasons under his belt the price only goes up. It’s not crazy for a guy to think he can be worth MORE in a few years. That was essentially the hold up with Bobby Ryan in Anaheim. He wanted to take less money to be a UFA ASAP.
And how has that worked out for us? If Gabby was a UFA this season, no would want him back for the 22.5 mil were paying him over the next 3 years. Lou is the Anti-Slats.
One good year one bad year. That’s how it worked out so far. Gaborik with Parise’s durability would have probably commanded less than Kovalchuk’s deal but more than 5 years. Maybe something akin to Nash’s deal.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Jun 2, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions
Parise became an RFA when the Devils season ended.
If the Club elects to file for arbitration – they must do so by “….not later than 5:00 p.m. New York time on the later of June 15 or 48 hours after the conclusion of the Stanley Cup Finals….” (CBA 12.4(a) – this clause reflects Group 2 FAs who earned more than 1.5mm in the last season, for which Parise qualifies).
Or, they can take their chances and file a QO. The rules change somewhat if they do that. The player has until July 5th @ 5 p.m. to file. If the player does not choose to file, the club can starting on July 6th.
In order to retain right of first refusal and draft choice compensation, the club must submit a Qualifying Offer by “….no later than 5:00 p.m. New York time on the later of June 25 or the first Monday after the Entry Draft….” (CBA 10.2(a)(ii))
If a Club selects arbitration, the “…Player will not be eligible to negotiate with any Club other than his Prior Club or sign an Offer Sheet….” (CBA 10.2(a)(i)(B) ). The same is true if the player elects arbitration.
Lou can take him off the market by filing for arbitration before he or his agent can talk to any other club. As George said, this is the route taken with Zajac. So, even if he’s continuing to negotiate in good faith (or even not-so-good-faith) Lou can take him off the market by filing pursuant to 12.4(a) as cited above. Once that is done, any attempt by any other club to contact him or his agent, or public statements made by officials of any other club indicating “interest”, run immediately afoul of the NHL Tampering bylaws.
If Lou takes him off the market by asking for arbitration, then there’s nothing we can do. That doesn’t mean we should sit on our hands if an opportunity presents itself. They could handle it the same way as the Zajac negotiations, but those weren’t for nearly as much money, or have the same cap implications.
I’m pretty sure Parise would pull a Lou Brown and piss all over that contract.
by NTB on Jun 2, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
and take what instead? A back loaded $6 per over 6 years from Lou, that he might have to roll back the good part of ?
6M for 6 years is nothing to roll your eyes at. It’s a lot of money and it would be guaranteed. If Parise is risk-adverse, he takes the long-term deal over short-term money and the uncertainty of the future.
by NTB on Jun 2, 2011 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m just saying, Parise isn’t going to slip into a 8 mil plus cap hit. Left to work out a deal with Lou, I think he’s looking at less then 7 mil per, probably like $6.5. average, and no raise for the next 2 seasons. Being a full fledged UFA in two years with $14 mil in your pocket and making $7 mil per in the final year of your RFA is not bad at all. Using that RFA contract math, the 7 mil is like 9 mil next year, right?
Why all that Parise talk...
..didnt the article show you at least we would have to pay huge compensation considering his salary and i even doubt we have all those picks initially from us anymore. So its just useless talk.
What i found interesting is the aspects i forgot about we first have to match gilroys inflated contract to reatin his rights. So i think it might be the only way to let him go UFA. Or can we send him to arvitration? Because i doubt he would get awarded his current salary there. On the other hand this wouldnt give us his rights too, just another year with him, and the question is if we havent enough talent on D to easily replace him cheaper anyway.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Related FanPosts on Blueshirt Banter
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
Rangers Schedule
Next 5 Games
New Jersey
|
Sun 05/27 | TBA |
Last 5 Games
|
@
New Jersey
|
Fri 05/25 | OT - L 2 - 3 |
|
New Jersey
|
Wed 05/23 | L 3 - 5 |
|
@
New Jersey
|
Mon 05/21 | L 1 - 4 |
|
@
New Jersey
|
Sat 05/19 | W 3 - 0 |
|
New Jersey
|
Wed 05/16 | L 2 - 3 |
SBNation.com Recent Stories
In Association With
Latest Puck Daddy - NHL from Yahoo! Sports
- Eulogy: Remembering the 2011-12 New York Rangers
- Stanley Cup Final: 5 keys for New Jersey Devils and Los Angeles Kings
- Friday’s Three Stars: Devils head to Final; Brodeur, Kovalchuk the difference in Game 6
- Devils eliminate Rangers in Game 6, ending fear of the past, setting course for the future
- Adam Henrique sends New Jersey Devils to Stanley Cup Final with OT goal vs. Rangers (VIDEO)
Latest stories and headlines from NHL.com
- Former Oilers Stoll, Greene grateful for 2nd chance when well-rested LA Kings face New Jersey
- Shinnimin named CHL's Player of the Year
- Capitals send left-wing Bourque to Bruins for centre Hamill
- Rangers look to get past hurt of loss to Devils
- Top-seeded Rangers have reasons for optimism after disappointing loss to Devils in East finals
