Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

Homer's Odyssey: Crash and Burn of the Flyers

In sports, and in life, when a journey comes to a certain point, we often take for granted the steps that were taken to bring us there. As we look back on and eulogize the 2010-2011 edition of the Philadelphia Flyers, some of us with great disappointment and most of us with a smirk of arrogant content, it is easy to forget how many mind-numbing errors were made by Paul Holmgren, the team’s general manager, along the way in constructing an expensive roster of big names and small performances. 

Star-divide

Full disclosure: I am a Rangers fan. Yes, I am well aware of who my general manager is, the inclination he has to sign big names to bigger contracts, and the remarkably consistent regularity of the failures of said big names. With that said, I find it important to recap some of the incredible misjudgments made by the general manager of my chief rival, if for no other reason than I am friends or acquaintances with many Flyers fans who consistently disregard what I have to say as the musings (fun fact: 4% of Flyers fans know what "musings" means) of a stupid Rangers fan. 

If you feel that what I say here is off point, you have the stage to point that out to me, and correct my take, if you can provide facts to back up your points. I welcome that. 

Today, we’re going to look at some of the horrific asset management that has plagued the Flyers organization during Homer’s Odyssey. For some Flyers fans, it truly will be a Greek tragedy. We will begin at the beginning of the 2006-2007 season, when Holmgren took over the GM position from Flyers toothless legend Bob Clarke a month into the season. 

As we will see along the journey, it started off rather well. 

• February 15, 2007 – Philadelphia Flyers trade Peter Forsberg to the Nashville Predators for Ryan Parent, Scottie Upshall, 2007 1st round pick, and 2007 3rd round pick. 

Whenever a team is making a rental dump move such as the one in which the Flyers traded away Peter Forsberg, it is crucial to acquire building block youth in return. In this trade, Holmgren succeeded in doing that. Bringing in young talent such as Scottie Upshall (2002 6th overall pick) and Ryan Parent (2005 18th overall pick), in addition to 1st and 3rd round picks was a fine haul for an aging Forsberg on the downside of his career to a Nashville team who ended up losing in the 1st round anyway. As the story goes on, however, we will find that the three key assets acquired in this deal were later scattered for a questionably subpar return. 

• February 24, 2007 – Philadelphia Flyers trade Alexei Zhitnik to the Atlanta Thrashers for Braydon Coburn 

I would venture to say this was Holmgren’s finest moment. To bring in a defenseman of Coburn’s pedigree (2003 8th overall pick) for an aging rental in Zhitnik was fantastic. Kudos to you on this one, Homer. Well played. 

• June 18, 2007 – Philadelphia Flyers trade Nashville 1st round pick (previously acquired in Peter Forsberg trade) to Nashville Predators for negotiating rights to Kimmo Timonen and Scott Hartnell. Kimmo Timonen signed to 6-year, $37.8 million contract. Scott Hartnell signed to 6 year, $25.2 million contract. 

I will start off by saying that I think Kimmo Timonen is an excellent defenseman. I think he is clearly in the top 20 defensemen in the game, even at his age. Having said that, this trade seems to be an over-excited one. In the time Holmgren had exclusive negotiating rights to Timonen, he offered the Finnish defenseman a 6 year deal worth $37.8 Million. Considering the free agent environment at the time, coupled with the salary cap limitations, it is widely believed that this deal was an above-market price for Timonen. The Flyers gave a 32 year old defenseman a 6 year deal paying $6.3 million per year. Had they offered this contact to a free-agent Timonen, it is without question it would have been the best deal available and he would have signed with the Flyers, without costing the Flyers one of the 3 primary assets they received in trade for Forsberg. 

Additionally, the Flyers brought in power forward Scott Hartnell. Personally, I don’t like Scott Hartnell as a player, but for this team, I do see where he can be effective. However, if the Flyers had intentions of offering Hartnell a contract worth $25.2 million over 6 years, they could have done so when Hartnell was a free agent. In similar fashion to the Timonen deal, the Flyers gave an above-market contract to Hartnell when they were bidding against themselves. They didn’t have to give away a 1st round pick to do so. 

What may be a little more scathing, at least to fans that have some level of acumen regarding top prospects in the sport, is that the Predators used their re-acquired 1st round pick to select defenseman Jonathan Blum, who is regarded currently as one of the top-25 prospects in hockey. The Flyers could sure use a defenseman of Blum’s pedigree at this point, given that Timonen is now 36. 

• July 1, 2007 – Philadelphia Flyers trade Joni Pitkanen, Geoff Sanderson, and 2009 3rd round pick to Edmonton Oilers for Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul

This trade, at face value, is not a total loss. Jason Smith went on to be the transitional captain to Mike Richards and Lupul was a serviceable wing until he was traded 2 years later, but I feel the Flyers gave up on Pitkanen too early. Puck moving defensemen of Pitkanen’s age at the time of the deal don’t often get traded because of their value. Pitkanen had not yet matured into the role he was expected to fill at the time he was drafted 4th overall, but the Flyers did not allow him the time he needed, and cut bait. 

• December 13, 2007 – Mike Richards signs 12-year, $69 million extension. 

12 years. 12 years? 12 years. 

Let’s be real here. Flyers fan or not, do you feel Mike Richards, at age 24, was worthy of a 12-year contract? Really? 

Financial security can change a player. When you don’t need to worry about your next contract, you don’t have to play as hard, because you know the money is coming, and is going to keep coming, because your contract says the money is coming, and is going to keep coming. 

Mike Richards is a good hockey player, a very good hockey player. But is he worth that long of a guaranteed commitment from a team? I heavily question this. He’s not Sidney Crosby and he’s not Alexander Ovechkin. If you’re not in the top-10 players in the world, you’re not worthy of a contract that pays you from age 24 to age 36. 

Furthermore, assigning him the captaincy at his age was an unbelievably short-sighted move. How can the Flyers take the "C" away from him now? Calls have been made by the fan base to do just that, but he’s signed until Armageddon, so they can’t really do that. 

• June 20, 2008 – Philadelphia Flyers trade R.J. Umberger and 2008 4th round pick to Columbus Blue Jackets for Colorado’s 2008 1st round pick and 2008 3rd round pick. 

This trade, at face value, is difficult to judge. At the time, Umberger was a expendable commodity because of the number of centers the team had on the roster. They did well in acquiring the 19th pick in the draft and drafting defenseman Luca Sbisa, who went on to play a number of games for the Flyers at the young age of 18. However, as time would move on, we would see this asset wouldn’t be Flyers property for long. 

• June 20, 2008 – Philadelphia Flyers trade 2008 1st round pick (27th overall) to Washington Capitals for Steve Eminger and 2008 3rd Rounder. 

For many reasons I will explain here, this trade was the 1st of many deals in which Homer damaged the future of the franchise. 

First and foremost, without question, he overrated Steve Eminger. To give up a 1st round pick for Steve Eminger, even at this stage of his career, was just an absolutely gross overstatement of his value. That alone does not damage the future, but two players that the Flyers had interest in at #27 and didn’t take have proved now to be clear needs gone unfilled. 

The Capitals went on to draft John Carlson, an American born defenseman who was widely regarded as one of the top-10 prospects in hockey last year, and played very well in his first year for Washington alongside fellow rookie Karl Alzner. Having Carlson on the current Flyers blue-line would have made a future costly move moot, which we will get to. 

What is more damaging is who was taken a mere 4 picks later. Goaltender Jacob Markstrom was taken by the Florida Panthers at #31, the top of the 2nd round. Markstrom appears ready to take over the starting job from Tomas Vokoun, an unrestricted free agent, and is currently regarded as a top-10 prospect in the sport. Regardless of what you believe about Sergei Bobrovsky and his potential future, Markstrom has a far higher ceiling, and projects out to be a dominant goaltender in the lineage of fellow Swede Henrik Lundqvist. Markstrom’s performance in the Swedish Elite League, the 2nd toughest league in the world, continues to affirm his standing as a future #1. 

Given what we saw in goal for the Flyers in this past postseason, Markstrom would be a welcome addition to say the very least. 

• July 1, 2008 – Philadelphia Flyers trade Denis Gauthier and 2010 2nd round pick to Los Angeles Kings for Patrick Hersley and Ned Lukacevic

For the readers who picked up a Hersley or Lukacevic jersey following this trade, you have my condolences. 

This is what happens when you overextend yourself in a salary cap world. In order for the Kings to take Denis Gauthier off of the Flyers hands, they required a 2nd round pick as a sweetener, and also for the Flyers to take back 2 low level prospects. 

In essence, the Flyers bribed the Kings with a 2nd rounder to take Gauthier and his contact off of their books. Not a brilliant example of asset management, indeed. 

• November 7, 2008 – Philadelphia Flyers trade Steve Eminger, Steve Downie, and Tampa Bay’s 2009 4th round pick (previously acquired) to Tampa Bay Lightning for Matt Carle and San Jose’s 2009 3rd Rounder. 

What is most damaging here is that if you replace Eminger with a 1st round pick (which is precisely what it cost the Flyers to acquire him in the first place), the trade looks somewhat lopsided given what Downie has become in Tampa. 

Trading Steve Downie and a 1st round pick for Matt Carle does appear to be an overpayment. It is troubling for Homer that he soured on Eminger just over a month into the season, and replaced him with Carle, a young defenseman that Tampa had acquired as part of the Dan Boyle trade with San Jose, and it cost him Steve Downie to do so. 

Matt Carle is not a bad defenseman. He’s rather good, given his age, but he is making in the vicinity of $3 million. In a salary cap world, it can be questioned whether a defensemen of his age should be making that money for his role, but he is not a bad player by any stretch. It is not acquiring him that is what makes the deal questionable, it’s the quick "white flag" waved on both Downie (2005 1st round pick) and Eminger (the cost of 2009 1st round pick). It would appear he may have rushed this one. 

• March 4, 2009 – Philadelphia Flyers trade Scottie Upshall and a 2011 2nd round pick to Phoenix Coyotes for Daniel Carcillo. 

This was also not Holmgren’s finest hour. If it was just Upshall traded for Carcillo, that’s an overpayment. If it was just the 2nd round pick traded for Carcillo, that’s still an overpayment. Trading both for a fighter with a short fuse? Inconceivable. Granted, Carcillo fits the Broad Street Bully moniker to a tee, but at what cost? Upshall was the 2nd of the big assets brought in from Nashville in the Forsberg deal to be moved out, but equally as destructive was the dispatch of the 2nd round pick. 

Because the 2010 2nd round pick was sent to Los Angeles to take Gauthier away, the Flyers had to move the 2011 2nd round pick, marking a 2nd consecutive year without a 2nd rounder. The pick-trading would not end here, not by a long shot. 

• June 26, 2009 – Philadelphia Flyers trade Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa, 2009 1st round pick, 2010 1st round pick, and conditional 3rd round pick in 2010 or 2011 to Anaheim Ducks for Chris Pronger and Ryan Dingle
• July 7, 2009 - Chris Pronger is signed to a 7 year, $35 million extension. Pronger is age 35 at onset of extension. 

Clearly, Homer must have been very high on Ryan Dingle, right? 

When hockey historians look back on this trade and contract in a decade or two, it will be a fantastic discussion about the advantages and pitfalls of large-scale future mortgaging and how it affects franchises moving forward. 

The price in talent was immense. In a salary cap world (and counting Sbisa as a 1st round pick since he was just that a year earlier), the Flyers traded away 3 high-level draft picks and a young forward for a defenseman who would be turning 35 in a few months. That price alone, in my opinion, was one that should have been cost-prohibitive for Homer. 


The Flyers and their draft pick exodus mentality always puzzle me. Given the Flyers recent history of hitting gold with their 1st round picks, drafting such talent at Jeff Carter and Mike Richards in 2003, Claude Giroux in 2006, and James VanRiemsdyk in 2007, one must question the value that the Flyers are trading away when trading the picks, and if the short-term gain is worth the long-term price. 

What is further damaging is that the contract extension was completely and utterly debacled, as Emmitt Smith would say. Due to an error in Paul Holmgren's interpretation of the NHL's collective bargaining agreement, the 7 year contract signed by Chris Pronger insures that, whether Pronger plays, doesn't play, lives, dies, or is abducted by aliens, will count $4,921,429 against the salary cap until the beginning of the 2017-18 season, when Pronger will be blowing 43 candles off of his birthday cake. As has been heavily documented, Holmgren intended this to be a "front-loaded" contract similar to that of Marian Hossa and his own Daniel Briere, but was excluded from that rule due to Pronger's 1st extended year beginning after he turned 35. 

When you combine the cost of talent and the cost of salary cap, given Pronger’s age and anticipated decline in production over time, this deal has all the potential to be a killer for the franchise’s future. 

• February 6, 2010 – Philadelphia Flyers trade Ole-Kristian Tollefsen and 2011 5th round pick to Detroit Red Wings for Ville Leino

I give full credit to Homer here. Well done. Leino has done well for the Flyers in the time he’s spent in orange and black. It is fair to question, however, if they will be able to keep the winger in Philadelphia, given their salary cap positioning. They would benefit greatly if the salary cap does in fact increase by the estimated $3 million as is anticipated. 

• June 19, 2010 – Philadelphia Flyers trade Ryan Parent to Nashville Predators for negotiation rights for Dan Hamhuis
• June 25, 2010 – Philadelphia Flyers trade negotiation rights to Dan Hamhuis to Pittsburgh Penguins for 2011 3rd round pick. 
• July 1, 2010 – Vancouver Canucks sign free agent Dan Hamhuis to 6-year, $27 million contract. 

The Flyers tried to pull another Timonen/Hartnell with Nashville in shipping off Ryan Parent for the rights to Hamhuis, giving them a week or so in exclusive negotiating time with the defenseman. What the Flyers had to have been aware of was the price Hamhuis was looking for when signing the contract, a price they were not willing to meet. 

Subsequently, his rights were traded to Pittsburgh for a 2011 3rd rounder. In effect, Parent was traded for a 3rd rounder. That’s not a bad deal, but I would have kept Parent to see what he can do. I do, though, think the 3rd rounder is key, since in a future deal, their own 3rd rounder was sent to Toronto. 

• November 13, 2010 – Jeff Carter signs 11 year, $58 million extension. 

See Richards, Mike. 

• July 1, 2010 – Philadelphia Flyers trade 2012 2nd round pick to Tampa Bay Lightning for Andrej Meszaros
• July 19, 2010 – Philadelphia Flyers trade Simon Gagne to Tampa Bay Lightning for Matt Walker and 2011 4th round pick. 

Let’s just combine these 2 deals for analysis sake, since they were 18 days apart and were between the same 2 teams. What is particularly damning here is that Meszaros is making $4 million per season for 3 more years from now to be a 5th defenseman, and the Flyers chose to not make a solid attempt at bringing in a goaltender. 

Additionally, because they had now increased their payroll from the Meszaros deal and the signing of enigmatic winger Nikolay Zherdev (who was a failure that was eventually waived), the Flyers essentially gave away long-time heart and soul player Simon Gagne, who had a decent year for Tampa. 

This trade is an unnecessary expense that would have been moot if the Flyers had drafted John Carlson. In addition to having an affordable, young defenseman with a bright future, they would also have kept Simon Gagne and could have allowed his cap hit to come off naturally at the end of his contract, which would have provided valuable flexibility. This did not happen. 

• February 14, 2011 – Philadelphia Flyers trade 2011 1st round pick and 2011 3rd round pick to Toronto Maple Leafs for Kris Versteeg

The most recent trade for the Flyers, and one of the more questionable, given the price. 

Kris Versteeg is a complimentary player. He’s a 2nd/3rd line winger that can score some if given the opportunity, but not really a necessity for a team with the forward depth the Flyers had this year. In this case, what on Earth did Homer think when he gave away ANOTHER 1st round pick (4 in a row) and a 3rd to bring in a guy making $3 million next year when he was already up against the cap? Ironically, Versteeg scored exactly 1 more goal in the playoffs than the 1st round pick that was traded away. 

And, following a short playoff run in which coach Peter Laviolette was forced to swap his goaltender during games 6 out 11 times, the season is over, and Homer must assess where this roster is in relation to where they need to be to win a championship. There are no high ceiling offensive or defensive prospects currently in the system for the Flyers, and given that their 1st pick will not be made until the middle of the 3rd round this year (Pittsburgh's pick from Dan Hamhuis deal), it's hard to project that the Flyers will add to that extremely thin stable. Following Kimmo Timonen and Chris Pronger, both of which are solidly on the wrong side of age 35, the Flyers don't have any other defensemen that a non-Kool Aid drinking, non-fan can say with any certainty can fill a top-2 role. 

The salary cap is not going to be the Flyers’ friend in future years. From a financial standpoint, in addition to Pronger's contract, the Flyers have 6 other players being paid upwards of $4 million annually for at least the next 2 seasons. Combining the dollars paid out to Daniel Briere, Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Scott Hartnell, Kimmo Timonen, Chris Pronger, and Andrej Meszaros, the Flyers will pay almost $37 Million to 7 players for both of the next 2 seasons, leaving $20 Million to construct the rest of the team. Of that $20 Million, Kris Versteeg (for next year), Claude Giroux (new contract), Braydon Coburn, and Matt Carle account for approximately $13.5 Million. Combining those 11 players, the Flyers will be paying out $50.5 Million, and have half a team left to construct. 

It is when these contracts preclude the Flyers from bringing in any more free agent players that the depth from within, and lack thereof, will be exposed. There isn't a Claude Giroux or James VanRiemsdyk coming up anytime soon. There isn't even an Andreas Nodl! Due to the repeated mortgaging of the future, the system is as bare as it's ever been for this team. If they do not complete their goal of winning a championship, the next 5-10 years of Flyers hockey may be defined by having too many high priced players and not enough depth. Being a fan of the New York Rangers, the 1998-2004 era taught me all I need to know about financial mismanagement, and that team didn't have to worry about a salary cap. They could pay $45 Million over 5 years to Bobby Holik or $36 million over 6 years to Darius Kasparaitis, and all that the Ranger fan had to worry about was an unwatchable product on the ice and increased ticket prices due to a $90 Million payroll. 

For the Flyers, though, Homer’s Odyssey appears to be continuing into the 2011-12 season. Given his propensity to trade value away, would you be surprised if he traded next year’s 1st round pick for some magic beans? 

All of this, and they don’t even have a freakin’ goalie. What a tragedy. 

Brian Attard

Contributor to Blueshirt Banter Radio

@captain9nyr 

Comment 48 comments  |  4 recs  | 

Do you like this story?

Comments

Display:

Martin Biron

Let’s not forget the whole Ray Emery fiasco. Why they signed him over re-signing Biron was beyond me. Especially given the inconsistent play of Emery in the past and the fact he came off major surgery. Not that I or anyone here in Rangerland are complaining. :)

by Canadian Shield on May 9, 2011 10:14 PM EDT reply actions  

Great post!

Anytime someone mentions the Pronger debacle, I have to give them a huge thumbs up.

The cap mismanagement of the Rangers’ two biggest rivals, the Devils and the Flyers, should be a source of great joy to Rangers fans. I didn’t realize just how badly the Flyers have bungled their situation though.

Looking at the Flyers potential cap situation in 2012-2013 season is beyond funny. 11 players signed, four with NT/NM clauses, another player in Pronger who is on a ridiculous, immovable, +35 contract and only about $20M to sign ten players (one of those ten is JvR who will need a nice raise by then). The real irony is that if they still had all of those high draft picks that Holmgren has been giving away for pennies on the dollar the past four years they probably wouldn’t be in such bad shape.

by caonenine on May 9, 2011 11:26 PM EDT reply actions  

Thoroughly enjoyed that..

Wow great post. I wondered every time I watched them how they could afford such talent with their team of deserved all-stars (only 1 voted in last year, 2 eventually made it, but that means nothing.) I guess they couldn’t afford the team afterall. I’m glad to see though that they are basically putting their faith in BOB and Bouch next year?

Also, you mentioned the Devils poor management of finances. I agree with that statement, but given a better head coach than Maclean, wouldn’t be surprised to see them in the division fight again. Coupled with a talented Islander’s team (did I just say that), It’s gonna be a tough season next year. Lets Go Rangers!

PS. Off topic but, Pleasee stop the dump and cycle Torts, Please.

by Jawns on May 10, 2011 8:21 AM EDT reply actions  

hehe...

Bouch rhymes with douche

Flyers take it up the ass, doo dah, doo dah, Flyers take it up the ass, all lah doo lah day.

by FIRESATHER327 on May 10, 2011 5:11 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Great post

It’s always interesting to reverse engineer how teams are built. This should provide ample evidence when trade proposals are made regarding mediocre players with sizable cap hits.

I will say though, despite their cap issues and revolving door of goalies, the Flyers are still loaded with young talent. We can poke fun at their annual spring demise due to shoddy goaltending, but the truth is the Rangers have mishandled their cap situation just as poorly and haven’t built anything close to a contender during that time. While I’m still high on the Rangers future in the next couple of seasons, there’s a substantial amount that has to go right in order for them to be considered a bona fide contender.

by MyFavBaseballSquadron on May 10, 2011 11:25 AM EDT reply actions  

The Rangers haven’t mishandled their cap at all. After next season there are only seven Rangers under contract. Gaborik, Stepan, Staal, Girardi, McDonagh, Lundquvist and Boogaard. Other than Boogaard, all are very important players for the Rangers. Boogaard can be banished to the minors along with the other bad contract, Redden.

At that same point in time The Flyers will have two Ds pushing 40 and what will be a 35 year old Briere taking up almost $18M in cap space.

Maybe the Flyers lucked their way into a Cup Final as a 7 seed last year, but, today, I would be feeling much more confident about the near future as a Rangers fan than a Flyers fan.

by caonenine on May 11, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Excellent, as a Ranger fan, anytime the Failers make a move that dooms the future of their club, I applaud. for the past two seasons the Flyers were in “win it now” mode. Kind of where we have been in past years. I think we will see the decline of the Flyers coincide with our own team emerging as one of the better young teams in the league in the next couple of years. Yes, I know we are pretty good now, but awaiting some of the young talent in our system, we have huge brightside to look forward to.

Absolute Worst Ranger Fan!!!!!!....yet incredibly realistic and usually correct.

by earthworm on May 10, 2011 12:20 PM EDT reply actions  

Just want to point out some mitigating circumstances:

I’ve heard that Upshall was a big partier, and the trade with Phoenix was to signal that that behavior (in which guys like Carter joined) is unacceptable.

Richards isn’t a big ES scorer, but he’s good on the PP and can score 70 points saddled with less-than-ideal zone starts and top notch competition. I’m not sure about the term, sure, but I don’t think it’s a bad deal. Carter is defensively responsible and a 40 goal scorer as well, I don’t think either he or Richards’ contracts are any less deserved than, say, Ovechkin’s.

I’d also pay that price for Versteeg. He’s a good hockey player.

Another thing to note is that with your core locked up, all the Flyers need to keep adding are complementary players. Not saying the way they’ve done it is ideal, just that I understand their strategy. Pittsburgh has done it the same way (albeit wisely signing younger players to be part of the core).

Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
To help with basic Timeonice functions.
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.

by red army line on May 10, 2011 2:24 PM EDT reply actions  

I was going to point out most of the same things you did, as well as a few more

You’re undervaluing Eminger. At the time he was 24 and a former #12 over pick. At the end of the day, they used him to get the type of D-man they wanted (Carle) so I wouldn’t look too much into it. Getting Carlson at #27 was great for the Caps, but there’s more forgettable #27 overall’s then memorable ones.

You’re giving Downie WAY, WAY too much credit. The guy is dirtbag. He was a dirtbag in Jr., then when he started with the Flyers he got worse. His still the same dirtbag, he just gets away with it cause he’s Stamkos’ protection.

RAL is dead on, it’s hard to fault them for what they did. 2 seasons, 4 playoff series won. There biggest question is in goal, and if they can keep those balls in the air somehow, and add Bryzgalov, look out. They’re gonna lose some guys, along the way, but they can be replaced.

by BuckarooClub on May 10, 2011 8:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Their top 2 defensemen are 36, and there isn’t a soul on that roster or in that system that can play that role. It’s hard enough to get 1 top 2 d-man through free agency, they need 2, and they’re already at a cap disadvantage.

@captain9nyr

by captain9nyr on May 10, 2011 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

Cross that bridge when they come to it. Pronger isn’t playing until he’s 43, but he’s got a few more seasons in him. Timmonen, at 36, would have led our defense in scoring this season. You can’t start throwing dirt on those guys until they ATLEAST start slowing down. Carle, Coburn, and Meszaros are all 26 or younger. Outside of those 2, this isn’t a roster of old men. They’re just a young as us. IF, and i think it’s a huge IF, all our prospects develop to the crazy expectations we have for them, and turn us into a contender in the next 3 years, people are going to be asking the exact same question about our goaltending. Philly did what they had to get a winning team on the ice, and be a contender. I’m not HAPPY about that, or rooting for Philly, but I can’t say I’m not jealous.

by BuckarooClub on May 10, 2011 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

Seeing as Pronger is already starting to fall apart at year one of seven of his abomination of a contract, I will give the Flyers tons of credit if they can pull off a championship with about $5M less in cap space than the rest of the league.

by caonenine on May 11, 2011 10:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

don't throw dirt on players? that's a laugh coming from you

Considering that you throw dirt on guys before they’ve even reached the NHL (Kreider), and that you throw dirt on guys who don’t deserve to have dirt thrown on them (Staal/Girardi), you are kidding with your plea to leave poor Chris Pronger and Kimmo Timonen alone, right? Remember they are Flyers, and that this is a Ranger blog, right? So dirt-tossing on the Flyers is not only OK, but encouraged….

It’s interesting that you defend the declining Flyers franchise—they are/will be tremendously hamstrung by the various moves pulled by Holmgren in terms of the salary cap for the next few seasons. The type of personnel moves you often advocate for the Rangers have now damaged the immediate and long-term future of the Flyers. Despite the alleged success of the Pronger acquisition, the Flyers still have no goalies worth mentioning….and they’ve won exactly what the Rangers have won in the last two years, which is nothing.

They were a contender for nothing this year—they should have lost to the Sabres in round 1, and no team can call themselves real contenders with Brian Boucher as their netminder. Last year’s run to the Cup finals for the Flyers was ridiculously lucky considering the garbage goaltending they trotted out for every game in the playoffs last year. The bill is due for Holmgren’s mismanagement, and all of us Ranger fans (yeah, I’m even including you Buck) should delight in the imminent disaster brewing in Philly.

Prole art threat.

by greifi griffie on May 11, 2011 1:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

You’re vastly underestimating the Flyers. They’ve home-grown a hell of a lot of talent (including guys like Carle and Coburn who entered the organization before becoming impact NHLers) and their skater depth is second to none in the East.

Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
To help with basic Timeonice functions.
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.

by red army line on May 12, 2011 6:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

And I think you are overrating two very run-of-the-mill NHL defensemen in Matt Carle and Braydon Coburn…..this article is about their impending salary cap disaster, not their overall talent level. Obviously they still have Giroux, Carter, Richards, and Versteeg up front and Meszaros/Pronger/Timmonen—which means they will win games. I am not disputing that. But how are they going to afford to pay their team when Briere and Pronger are clogging up their salary cap? Additionally Holmgren has shown little indication of making a break from the Flyer tradition of stacking your lineup while neglecting the player in the crease. Aside from all that, do you really believe this team still has the ability to win a championship? I do not—not as they are currently constructed.

I am disputing the notion of the Flyers as serious contenders for the Cup for this year. Despite high levels of talent at forward and defense the Flyers trotted out an incomplete team, another year spent trying to hide a gaping hole in net. This problem is not new either, it is now a two-decades old problem for Philly. It is the main reason why this team is 0-6 (!!!) in Stanley Cup finals series since their last championship. They got lucky—flat out lucky—to get to the finals in 2009-10, and they won’t sniff the finals again until they get somebody who’s in the top 20 goalies in the NHL to play nets for them.

Prole art threat.

by greifi griffie on May 12, 2011 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

And I think you are overrating two very run-of-the-mill NHL defensemen in Matt Carle and Braydon Coburn…..

both of whom have played top pair on a team with Pronger and Timonen and get ice time at 5on5 that ranks just outside the top 30 for D.

But how are they going to afford to pay their team when Briere and Pronger are clogging up their salary cap?

How are they doing it now?

Neither of those two is getting any more expensive. Richards won’t be. Carter won’t be. Nodl, Powe, Carcillo, and JVR will all be RFAs, they won’t be getting big raises. Giroux is signed for the next three seasons. Zherdev will be gone. Leighton will get put in the AHL again if need be, where they have lots of players on ELCs in the AHL, and while none are offensive studs, will the Flyers really be needing anything more than fillers and role players in the near future?

Sure, they will get worse, and will have less depth. It seems similar to Chicago, and the Hawks are still a great hockey team, having simply locked up their core and trading away complementary players. Exactly what the Flyers will do.

Additionally Holmgren has shown little indication of making a break from the Flyer tradition of stacking your lineup while neglecting the player in the crease. Aside from all that, do you really believe this team still has the ability to win a championship? I do not—not as they are currently constructed.

They made the SCF and their skaters outplayed the Chicago skaters. Again, “name” goaltending is overrated. From a purely statistical standpoint, a binomial distribution for a goalie is skewed to the left, meaning that, since goalies on average stop over 90% of shots against anyway, it’s easy for a goalie to get hot. That’s all you need when you have a team that (generally!!!) plays as well as the Flyers.

They got lucky—flat out lucky—to get to the finals in 2009-10, and they won’t sniff the finals again until they get somebody who’s in the top 20 goalies in the NHL to play nets for them.

Like Osgood or Fleury, right? As it is, any team that makes the SCF needs a serious dose of luck. Every team has gaping holes, and you just hope your holes are smaller than anyone else’s.

Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
To help with basic Timeonice functions.
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.

by red army line on May 12, 2011 8:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

To say that Flyer skaters outplayed BlackHawk skaters in a six-game series loss in the Cup finals last year is a joke.

As far as the rest of your response here, I’ll rebut by saying Carle and Coburn are disliked by their own fanbase, and ice time doesn’t always equate with ability. If you think Briere and Pronger will be worth what they will be paid in even two years’ time I will simply agree to disagree with you.

You are defending a team that went down 3-0 to the Bruins two straight years….without Richards’ wrist-breaking open-ice hit on Krejci the Flyers probably would’ve lost that series last year. If that ain’t luck, then I don’t know what is…..

And lastly I do not think Chris Osgood is a top 20 netminder, no matter how many Cups he’s won. He is however a better goalie than Boucher or Leighton….or Neuvirth for that matter……

Prole art threat.

by greifi griffie on May 12, 2011 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions  

Blackhawks Flyers.

No coach is dumb enough to play run of the mill NHLers nearly 20 minutes a night. Especially with Pronger, Timonen, and Meszaros there as other options.

Funny how goaltending works. I’m basically saying that prior teams have made it without a top-20 goalie, because those teams are loaded among their skaters, like the Flyers. The Flyers aren’t as dominant as those Red Wings or those Penguins team, but their competition isn’t nearly as good and they’re still very solid.

Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
To help with basic Timeonice functions.
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.

by red army line on May 12, 2011 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

Again, if the Flyers outplayed the ’Hawks in that series, they would have won the Stanley Cup. That is usually the way these things work. Goalies are members of teams too, and cannot be tossed out to fit a strange interpretation of a losing team in the Cup finals.

Prole art threat.

by greifi griffie on May 12, 2011 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions  

That’s why I said “skaters,” since goalies that aren’t at either end of the “exceptional puck handling ability” spectrum and “rebound control” spectrum aren’t going to affect scoring chances. It came as a surprise to me too, seemed that the Hawks were kind of tired most of the series.

Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
To help with basic Timeonice functions.
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.

by red army line on May 12, 2011 9:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

To statistically separate the forwards, d-men, and goalies is all fine and dandy….but it doesn’t change the fact that saying in a blanket statement that “the Flyers’ skaters outplayed the Hawks skaters” in a 6-game series loss is erroneous. I don’t care what the chances were, when a team goes 2-4 in a 6-gamer it means they lost, and that they deserved to lose. There’s no “outplaying” by Flyers here, I judge teams by their team performance, not by breaking down individual factors in their losing performance to misrepresent their losing performance.

Prole art threat.

by greifi griffie on May 13, 2011 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

So do we agree Philadelphia is deep up front?

Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
To help with basic Timeonice functions.
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.

by red army line on May 13, 2011 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions  

absolutely

I think we agree on that; we perceive their future opportunities for Cups differently. I think there’s more pain in their future than you do, and that it will arrive within the next two seasons.

By the way, you did see Pronger had disk surgery?

Prole art threat.

by greifi griffie on May 13, 2011 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions  

Yep. I hate having the Caps play against the Flyers with both KT and Pronger (KT plays Ovechkin very well, and Pronger handles our second line), but I love his attitude with the media.

Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
To help with basic Timeonice functions.
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.

by red army line on May 13, 2011 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

Pronger is hilarious with the media. Wish Torts could take a page from Pronger’s book, and be dismissive without showing anger….

Prole art threat.

by greifi griffie on May 13, 2011 10:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

So to take it to the absolute extreme, if a team outshoots another 45-1, but loses 1-0, you don’t consider that ‘outplaying’ the other team?

Blueshirt Banter - Where Rangers' Fans Matter
Tracking the Rangers - Numbers don't lie. They just don't agree with you.
Twitter: RangerSmurf

by George E. Ays on May 13, 2011 9:24 AM EDT up reply actions  

I'll use a George Ays phrase to answer

Isn’t one game too small of a sample size? Hee hee.

Seriously though, this is why I do think numbers can sometimes paint false pictures….words like “outplayed” are loaded words to me when you are talking about a loss in a six-game series. To me that’s why the playoff series are seven games long, to avoid (as much as possible) the flash-in-the-pan upset and ensure that quality has its chance to show itself.

I am a results guy….I believe in the power of wins and losses as benchmarks for teams. Losing four out of six games in anything rarely establishes any case for dominance.

Prole art threat.

by greifi griffie on May 13, 2011 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions  

So you must think Mtl outplayed Wash last year in the playoffs?

by NTB on May 13, 2011 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions  

Hee hee. Jaro Halak would probably say that Montreal outplayed Washington, as would I. To me winners in playoff series are winners, not losers. The logic is pretty simple.

Hypothetical issues aren’t my favorites when it comes to discussing sports…..even when statistics are brought into play. Results in seven-game playoff series are not accidental.

Prole art threat.

by greifi griffie on May 13, 2011 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Or to put it in better language: hockey is a team sport; individual players contribute to a team concept, and can certainly dominate certain aspects of every game that is played. It always comes down to an overall performance as a team, however—and the length of the seven-game series is such that it does a great job of removing the chance element that exists in a five-game series.

Prole art threat.

by greifi griffie on May 13, 2011 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions  

the length of the seven-game series is such that it does a great job of removing the chance element that exists in a five-game series.

I would respectfully disagree. Luck is still a big part.

by NTB on May 13, 2011 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions  

@RAL; What do the Flyers do after next season when they have to resign UFAs Carle and Coburn, RFA JvR and add 7 or 8 other players (five forwards, one D and one or possibly two GKs depending on whether Bob works out or not) just to get the roster to 20 with only about $20M in cap space?

Maybe your argument is that the Flyers took their best shot with a “win now” team, but if that is your argument then you have to accept that the lean times in Philly, they are a-comin’ and Pronger’s, Briere’s and Timmo’s ridiculous contracts are leading the way. Of course overpaying Richards and Carter for no real reason probably didn’t help matters either.

by caonenine on May 12, 2011 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

No, my argument is that they have a ton of talent, so they’re not going to have to blow up the team. It won’t be an “immense disaster” because they have a good core locked up at a not-crippling price.

To use a recent example, think of Chicago. Who did they really lose whilst “blowing up the team”? Their bottom pairing, starting goalie, and four of their bottom six forwards. Crawford provided better goaltending in 10-11 than Niemi in 09-10, the D lost were nothing special, and of the bottom forwards, only Ladd is any good up front (and they got Frolik from Florida, plus Salak).

I used Bolland as worst-case for JVR. They’re going to get some good assets for Versteeg if they trade him (which I did). I gave Coburn a small raise, didn’t give Carle one, but Svret should cover any raises. I signed a veteran backup for near minimum, using Johnson as a comparable.

The top eight forwards are strong here. Hartnell and Shelley will come off the books at the end of the season for which I did this (2012-2013) so they’ll get about $5 million in space, and Meszaros comes off the books the next season.

CAPGEEK.COM CAP CALCULATOR

FORWARDS
Daniel Briere ($6.500m) / Mike Richards ($5.750m) / Jeff Carter ($5.272m)
Scott Hartnell ($4.200m) / Claude Giroux ($3.750m) / Jody Shelley ($1.100m)
Dave Bolland ($3.375m) / Andreas Nodl ($0.850m) / Darroll Powe ($0.725m)
Daniel Carcillo ($1.075m) / Michael Testwuide ($0.900m) / Eric Wellwood ($0.580m)

DEFENSEMEN
Kimmo Timonen ($6.333m) / Chris Pronger ($4.921m)
Andrej Meszaros ($4.000m) / Oskars Bartulis ($0.600m)
Niklas Hjalmarsson ($3.500m) / Matt Carle ($3.437m)
Danny Syvret ($0.600m)

GOALTENDERS
Sergei Bobrovsky ($1.750m) / Brent Johnson ($0.600m)

CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled without the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $59,400,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,819,989; BONUSES: $1,110,000
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): -$419,989

The cap is going up, so it’s tight, but still very do-able.

Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
To help with basic Timeonice functions.
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.

by red army line on May 12, 2011 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think you are severely underestimating what Coburn, Carle, JvR, Nodl, and Powe will get in terms of raises.

Let’s start with JvR … Two things can happen here.
1) The Flyers lock him up long term like Richards or Carter, you are looking at about a $4.25M~$5M cap hit in that case (I am working on the assumption he breaks out over the next two years to a 60~70 point guy).
2) He doesn’t break out and he signs something in the Giroux, Bolland neighborhood $2.5M~$3.5M. Though in that scenario he is vulnerable to being poached with an offer sheet or he could be dealt like Versteeg.

Powe, Nodl and Carcillo won’t get huge raises, but they will get something, I would expect they would have about a $5M combined cap hit.

Coburn and Carle will be 27 year old UFA Ds hitting the open market, you are insulting them and their agents by not thinking they will get raises or only insignificant raises. Look for both of them to sign deals significantly north of what Volchenkov got last offseason ($4.25M) from the Devils. Both are younger than Volchenkov and they are the #3 and #4 sub 30 year old Ds hitting the open market that year. #1 is Ryan Suter and #2 is Brent Burns. Coburn is the best stay at home type D available. I see Carle and Coburn both signing deals with a cap hit over $5M. I think it will cost the Flyers close to $4.75M to keep either of those two from going to Free Agency.

Assuming the cap goes up to about $65M for 2012-13, you are looking at $44,177,489 that has already been committed to 11 players. About $9M for Carle and Coburn; about $5M for Powe, Nodl and Carcillo combined; anywhere from $2.5M to $5M for JvR. That gets the Flyers up to $60.5M or $63M (depending on what JvR gets). They still need to sign a goalie or two (They are not getting Johnson for the league minimum, $600K), one more D and two more forwards with about $2M to $4.5M of cap space. That’s too tight for a veteran team. Of course, if Pronger has to retire at some point over the next two years because of his recent neck surgery, now you are talking about adding another D while not having access to the $4.82M in cap space Pronger’s ridiculous +35 contract eats up.

Sorry for the long post, but to me, this has the look of an impending disaster.

by caonenine on May 12, 2011 1:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

I see what you’re saying, but I see it a bit differently:

I can’t see JvR getting more than Giroux, who might be the best forward on that team and signed a contract extension this past year. Considering he’s RFA, he should go for about 60% of market price (per BtN, that’s the average). Giroux had his break-out playoffs right before signing his deal, too. I also think JvR still isn’t going to get enough ice time to put up the big numbers—Richards, Carter, Giroux, Briere, Hartnell, Versteeg should all get prime ice time before him.

Powe, Nodl, and Carcillo may get raises, but they’re RFAs and depth forwards on a team with plenty of depth. I can’t see them getting much of a raise, and I think it’s likely Carcillo gets traded somewhere to save a bit of cap room.

Coburn could definitely price himself out of Philadelphia, but he’d end up going to a bad team that likes to sign UFAs to chase money, and no way in anybody’s mind that he’s worth more than AV. AV was a similar age, though not as durable. You’re probably right on Carle, though, I didn’t realize how many points he actually puts up.

On that last point, so we agree that they have a bit of room to fill some bottom roster spots, right? There are always guys floating around who’ll play for league minimum or close to it. If nothing else, sign a guy like Alex Giroux who’d be happy to crack an NHL roster, and just play him like a goon (3 mins a night).

Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
To help with basic Timeonice functions.
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.

by red army line on May 12, 2011 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I agree, they have some room, I just think that they are going to need better players than league minimum muckers for those 4th line and 3rd D pair roles, especially if Pronger’s injury situation continues to deteriorate. It would be hard to replace those 25 minutes a night with an Eminger or Mara type especially when Timmo is almost 38 and Carle and/or Coburn have left the team.

Btw, I could definitely see Coburn or Carle leaving for gr$$ner pastures, I know hockey players are much less likely than other pro athletes to jump into bad team situations merely for cash, but these are humans. They realize this may be their only chance to get paid and they may not want to pass up on that.

by caonenine on May 13, 2011 10:18 AM EDT up reply actions  

My "dirt throwing’ plea was more about people saying those two are old and dead. Like PHYSICALLY throwing dirt on their corpses. If you wanna trash them personally, go for it. It’s a Rangers blog and and ripping the Flyers should certainly be encouraged. We’ve gotta be honest in our assesments though, they’re still a team we’ve gotta prove we can get through to be relevant in the Cup hunt, our conference, or even the division.

Pronger and Timonen are still playing, and putting up solid numbers. Prongers had some injury issues, but I think he’s shown that he can be a huge influence just being around young players. Pronger actually IS what Drury supporters like to SAY Chris Drury is.

by BuckarooClub on May 12, 2011 12:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pronger just had a discectomy this week. Who knows if he is going to be the same player … you know what will be the same for the next six years no matter what, his near $5M annual cap hit.

by caonenine on May 12, 2011 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

buck...

are you sure you’re not an undercover flyers fan? i almost wouldnt be surprised.

In Prust we Trust
"It's just pain."
This team has balls.

by Master Ov Brutality on May 11, 2011 4:50 PM EDT up reply actions  

Not at all

I’m just a VERY honest Rangers fan, and hockey fan in general. You can not like a team , but you gotta give credit where it’s due.

by BuckarooClub on May 12, 2011 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

In hindsight, maybe losing to Philadelphia in the ECQF in 2008 was the best path. Even though it meant our 56% Fenwick team with an at-the-time top-notch goalie bowed out, it meant Philly got to see Steve Eminger play well in a losing effort, and I think that contributed to their wanting to take him on.

Red Line Station and @RedArmyLine, featuring coverage of the most frustrating team in the NHL
To help with basic Timeonice functions.
If I reference a lot of stats, just assume I haven't seen anything to contradict or invalidate them.

by red army line on May 11, 2011 9:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

holy shit...

that was impressive….great write up.
was truly uplifting to see what pain will be coming to the Flyers for many years to come.

i have never been so interested in reading about the Flyers before in my life…truly epic failure….makes Glen Sather look like a genius.

you should submit this as an article to nhl.com or something…i’d love to see the reactions of Flyer fans…that’s for sure….cuz next to Caps fans i dont know a much shittier fan, for the most part.

In Prust we Trust
"It's just pain."
This team has balls.

by Master Ov Brutality on May 10, 2011 3:17 PM EDT reply actions  

oh, and defintely rec'd

In Prust we Trust
"It's just pain."
This team has balls.

by Master Ov Brutality on May 10, 2011 3:22 PM EDT reply actions  

Was thinking "tl;dnr" at first, but holy shit was that worth it

I had no idea the Flyers were so screwed but it warms me to know that they are. There pretty much the Hawks minus the superstar 23 year olds, a young all star defensive pairing, long-ass contracts to unload, and the awesome city.

"Mes que un club"
-Ahmad Bradshaw is undoubtedly a psychic genius.

by Scratch and Snif on May 10, 2011 6:36 PM EDT reply actions  

After finally taking the time to go through this post

I’ve come up with a few thoughts:

1) The Flyers obviously took to the idea that trying to get the best defense out there could hide their deficiencies in goal

2) I wonder how many of those wasted draft picks could have been used to actually draft a halfway competent goalie

3) Damn, I didn’t know the Flyers mortgaged two 1st round picks for a 35 year old defenseman and then screwed themselves with that contract extention

In hindsight, Ol’ Slats ain’t half bad in the last couple of years

"Don't look now, but there's one too many people in this room and I think it's you." Groucho Marx

In Prust We Trust

"Kovalev would work with Tortorella like a kitty would work in a microwave.

A lot of smoke and desperate clawing at the door. It wouldn’t work. It would just be a big, hot mess." -Dig Deep

Follow me @8kpower

by Kevin Power on May 10, 2011 9:00 PM EDT reply actions  

2) I wonder how many of those wasted draft picks could have been used to actually draft a halfway competent goalie

How many people realize they’re drafting a halfway competent goalie when they take them? To get a goalie you can win behind, you’ve gotta get lucky or buy what you know.The only top pick who’s really had a lights out playoff as long as I can remember is Fleurry.

by BuckarooClub on May 10, 2011 10:09 PM EDT reply actions  

That’s a solid point Buck. For sure, at least one of those first rounders would have been used on a goalie, and high draft picks on goalies are hardly a guarantee for top level NHL caliber goalkeeping.

The Flyers really screwed themselves by not using those high draft picks to stock their system with a bunch of younger players they could be calling up now while they are still on their entry level deals or on modest second contracts to help alleviate their coming cap crunch.

I say it all the time, the NHL is now a young man’s league. Veterans make too much money and take up too much cap space to have a team consist of a few well paid stars and a bunch of grizzled vets. Role players have to be youngsters with strong legs and modest contracts.

by caonenine on May 11, 2011 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions  

Exactly, minus Drury, NYR are doing it right.

Aucune clause de Mouvement

by Blueshirt in Paris on May 17, 2011 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

New York Rangers News, Analysis, Line Combinations, Schedule And Stats

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

11p0584_small
Zuccarello signed in KHL
Small
Good Season boys! Now for next year.
Rangers_small
Just my thoughts...
Brad_richards_florida_panthers_v_new_york_cntbddbremtl_small
Strategy For Game 6
Small
It’s time to get Nasty.
Small
Rangers Viewing Party Questions
Staal-marc_small
In case you haven't seen this yet...
Dictator_small
Win Tickets to Gm. 4
Small
Some principles on defensive hockey tactics (nothing for experts but for the "casual fan")
Small
Let's have some fun. I have a time machine!

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

51 - 24 - 7

Lost 3

Rangers Schedule


Managing Editor

Joe_2_small Joe Fortunato

Editors

Blueshirt-underground-logo1_small Jim Schmiedeberg

Drurybloodsmall_small Rob L

Meandrichards_small Nick Montemagno

Small George E. Ays

Untitled_small Dig Deep

Kreider_small Kevin Power

Nsapcs7_extr_small Brandon C.

Me_small Bryan Winters

Contributors

Twitter_pic_small Laurie Carr