New York Rangers News And Notes: Bantering Points
by Bryan Winters on Aug 16, 2011 6:00 AM EDT
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- With the Rangers competing in this upcoming Winter Classic, that means we will get the opportunity to see them on HBO 24/7. Adam Rotter takes a look who will be the next star on 24/7.
- In the past few years, there have been several surprising players that have played for the Rangers. Previously it was Brandon Dubinsky, and the following year it was the Callahan and Dubinsky line and Derek Stepan.
Dave over at Blue Seat Blogs takes a look at who could be next year's big surprise.
- Jess Rubenstein over at the Prospect Park takes a look at three non-roster invitees
- Larry Brooks takes a dive into what it would take for the Rangers to acquire Shea Weber.
- Guest blogger Mikeyyy over at Blue Seats Blogs points out the keys to the Rangers success in the upcoming seasons.
- As we announced yesterday, former Canucks forward was found dead in his Alberta apartment early on Monday. Rypien was said to have a problem with depression. Police stated that there have been no suspicious activity involved with his death.
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That seems to be pretty steep
Is Weber better than Staal? No question. Is Weber’s premium worth the 50 or so points you give up with AA/Stepan and a first round pick? I don’t know. Not to mention the extra cap space he’ll take up over Staal’s team friendly cap hit.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Aug 16, 2011 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions
top 5 player in the league and probably top D. of course it’s steep and it’s what it would take to get him. I love Staal and AA but if you have an opportunity like this you go for it. Weber, barring injuries, will be a first ballot HOFer when all is said and done and one of the best players in his era.
First ballot HOFer?
Not that points are by any means an accurate measure for D, but he’s not going to entice many voters if he remains around 0.50 pts/g for his career unless he wins a bunch of Norris Trophies, where he’ll have some stiff competition from the likes of Doughty and Keith among his contemporaries and whomever else develops into an elite D. And might also get penalized by voters if he stays with Nashville and they win nothing.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Aug 16, 2011 9:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I believe he will. Would you trade any single D for Weber? Yup. That includes Doughty, Keith, Chara, whomever you want to say. Weber’s 25 and I will assume he hasn’t plateaued yet. His pts are a direct reflection of his team. Put him on even the Rangers and see what happens. I can’t see him staying in Nashville. Re-sign him, Rinne, Suter, AND put a competitive team around him for around $50M? Just those 3 players are $20M+ per. Good luck with that, lol.
by Richter1994 on Aug 16, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
The list of HOF inducted D in the last decade (or even two) have tended to be the high point-getting guys. The notable exceptions being Stevens and Langway, at least for their NHL contributions. Fetisov was obviously inducted more for his Red Army days. If Weber can match Langway with a couple of Norris trophies then I can see him getting some consideration at the end of his playing career but without a lot of individual hardware and some team success during his prime years, I can easily see him getting overlooked. I think he’s a good bet to win a Norris soon, although as long as Lidstrom and Chara are still playing at a decent level (and the Wings and Bruins continue to be upper tier teams) I think he’ll suffer from playing in a non-traditional market.
As for your other question. I’ll start off with answering it with a question of my own. Trade for him for just right now, or right now + 5 years? I wouldn’t trade Doughty for Weber if we’re using the latter as a scenario. 4 years younger, already just as productive from the blueline and I think he’ll develop into a comparable level on defense.
As for what Nashville does, they can always lock him up to a lower cap hit than his current $7.5M and/or part ways with Suter before letting Weber walk.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Aug 16, 2011 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions
It gets lost because his game with the Devils changed after the lockout…but Stevens was a guy that was every bit the offensive force as the other guys of his era. After that is when he became the wrecking ball, defense first type guy (it looks like they took his PP time away as well, don’t remember why that was)
If Chara’s considered a hall of famer, then Weber’s certainly on the track. You’re right, he’ll likely need a Norris or two in there, but that should come.
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by George E. Ays on Aug 16, 2011 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah Stevens was a force
With the Caps and even put up a solid offensive season with the Devils in 93-94. In terms of 2 way defensemen there were few better than him. Coffey obviously put up the points, but he was on two loaded offensive teams for many of his peak years.
Still, I’d argue without the Cups on the Devils, Stevens’ reputation suffers. While he’d still be a HOF candidate regardless, rightly or wrongly a Cup-less career always attracts complaints from hockey community.
Good comp with Chara. Weber’s already been more productive at a younger age (Chara didn’t have his first 40 point season until age 26) and the Norris and Cup further enhance his reputation. Out of the current crop of older D that will probably get HOF consideration, non-Lidstrom category, I’d rank Pronger ahead of Chara though.
Another possible Weber comp is Rob Blake.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Aug 16, 2011 11:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Again, I am assuming an upward progression for Weber. Of course he could stay as he is now but there is nothing to indicate he won’t be better as time goes on. I believe Weber can be better than all the guys mentioned above. The overall level of superior play still sits at Lidstrom’s feet, IMO. Maybe the greatest D of all time based on level of play and longevity. Orr doesn’t have the longevity and I hate to say it but D. Potvin is also in the conversation as well. It’s hard to judge the Habs’ D from past years because their teams were stacked due to the drafting by location rules going way back.
by Richter1994 on Aug 16, 2011 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Not sure I would trade Doughty
But any of the others, sure. Doughty being younger may turn out better, and they are different types of players, with Doughty having more offensive upside.
I agree. It would be tough to give up Staal & AA, but it would be worthwhile in this case.
It’s a little early to state he will be a first ballot HOFer, but he is certainly on the right path.
agree it’s early but that’s what I predict based on what he’s done already and the assumption of improvement going forward. if he changes teams and has the opportunity for better offensive #s then it will be a lock.
by Richter1994 on Aug 16, 2011 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions
hopefully never
Last night, a comedian died in New York. Somebody knows why. Somebody knows
by Rorschach44 on Aug 16, 2011 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions 2 recs
You’re crazy!!! Finally the rangers have created a core of players who know each other, see the same ice, and skate together, why would you ruin it? What is the incentive to get rid of Staal, and replace with Weber? If we accept that Weber is better, that still doesn’t mean he is appropriate for our team. Staal belongs here, he’s part of a core for the cup. To me, the following players mustn’t be traded- under no circumstance.
Callahan
Dubinsky
Staal
Lundqvist
What would the goal of a trade like that be? Come on, we have heavy weaponry now lets get a damn cup.
and that’s why you shouldn’t be GM. there’s no such thing as “untradeable.” especially for the 3 out of 4 guys you mentioned (the King being the untradeable guy). if I have a chance to get a top 5 player in the league then yes I would trade Staal. If I can trade Dubi or Cally+ for Nash then I do that as well. you don’t trade them for “nothing”, you trade to make your team better.
I agree with this.
If a deal comes around that you cant pass up on, well than you can’t pass up on it. Simple as that.
I do think Nash is over-rated however. Just MO.
"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."
LET'S GO RANGERS!!!
I would do that deal just like this:
Wolski, MDZ, Valentenko, and two (1)s for Weber during the season. To play him, Fedetenko ($1.4m), Eminger ($800k) and Avery ($1.938m) can sit as well as Erixon ($1.75m) can be sent down (if he makes the team). I wouldn’t send Staal…I’d be trying to get he and Weber paired up somehow.
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He's their franchise player
I think the only way they trade him is to get someone literally in the Stamkos/Crosby/Ovechkin territory in return. Not saying that those other teams would trade those particular players, but Nashville isn’t taking a bunch of maybe’s, what if’s and could be’s for this guy. They finally won a playoff round last year, even if there will be cap/internal budget difficulties with their team down the road, they’re more of a contender than a seller.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Aug 16, 2011 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Moreover, he’s a right-handed Norris candidate and their captain. They’re much more likely to let Suter walk in UFA (since he’ll likely command 5m+) than trade Weber, but neither is that likely really.
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by George E. Ays on Aug 16, 2011 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions
Just curious – why does it matter that he’s right-handed? Either way, he’s not going anywhere and if he does, I’d rather it not be here. We’ve got enough solid D-men & prospects. The cap space could be better spent elsewhere.
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My guess
There are more lefties in the league along with lefty catching goalies. Righties might have a slight advantage with shooting from a less popular angle.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Aug 16, 2011 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Rarity and playing the off side. There were 200 LH defenseman that played this year, only 106 RH ones.
As I look now, the top 30 point producing defensemen were split evenly 15-15, but top 60 (so, 1st pair in theory) is 37-23, so having the RH guy is a bit more valuable with the size of the player pool.
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by George E. Ays on Aug 16, 2011 10:17 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes, I know he’s all of those tangibles. I think the Preds will start to go into transition in the coming year. Especially when it comes to guys like Legwand, Fisher and Erat. They seem more likely to start rebuilding their team around Hornqvist, Suter, and Rinne. The arbitor dealt the Preds quite a blow when he decided $7.5mil for Weber, and that’s gonna shake the team to its core.
Their conundrum is tough…resigning Weber for one more season of RFA and adding more years of UFA at top dollar [or] giving guys like Suter (UFA), Tootoo (UFA), and Rinne (UFA) new contracts. The Preds have 13 total RFAs which include Weber, Colin Wilson, and Cal O’Reilly next offseason to resign (both with the big club and minors). They have G Chet Pickard to bring up, and aren’t exactly known for breaking the bank, since they’ve been paying the price for overpaying Legwand.
I know Weber is ‘the franchise’. But at the cost of not screwing themselves into the ground, the Preds’ organization tied their own hands by not resigning him earlier, and having the restrictions their ownership has placed upon them.
Weber ‘can’ be had.
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If anything the arb award helps the Preds in that they didn’t have to take on unncessary inflated salaries (like the Panthers) to reach the salary floor.
They put up next to no fight in the arb hearing. To me that indicates they’re willing to play with nice with negotiations. Ideally for them they will work out a long term deal that has a lower cap hit to keep him in Nashville.
Suter and Weber are the same age so it’s not like they’re getting any extra upside from keeping Suter that they wouldn’t get from Weber. I’d imagine if it comes down to one or the other, I’d say they keep Weber.
As for Rinne, he’d potentially be making a mistake if demanded a big contract given how many teams have started moving away from giving large deals to goalies. The market for goalies has become quite a buyers market the last few offseasons. Also, maybe he realizes that he’s not really going to have a better defense playing in front of him almost anywhere else he goes.
by MyFavBaseballSquadron on Aug 16, 2011 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
that’s exactly right. the arbitrator did his job correctly. Preds come in at under $5M and Weber at $8M or whatever it was. Preds banking on “splitting” the difference. Except the man in charge ignored the $$ submitted and looked at the player based on his current accomplishments and compared them to other players like Keith. so if he gets $7.5M as an RFA at 25 years of age then 10 years for $80M because a reality. can’t see Preds doing that AND signing Rinne AND signing Suter AND putting a competitive team around them. This is Nashville not New York we’re talking about.
by Richter1994 on Aug 16, 2011 12:04 PM EDT up reply actions
The arbitrator looked at the salaries, not the cap hits, of Keith and Seabrook as comparables for a 1 year deal. That Weber was awarded $7.5m does not mean that his cap hit will be expected to be that much going forward.
It’s quite likely they can work out a cap-friendly deal that gives him that $8m salary early and drives the hit down later in life. For instance, a Richards-like contract of 9 for $60m, or even a Kovaldeal for his career at a $6.6 hit.
And again, I agree completely with MFBS, if they’re drawing a line in the sand for their defensemen, they’re way more likely to keep Weber than Suter. But I think the guy that actually bites it would be Rinne. NSH didn’t pay to keep Vokoun around, they didn’t pay to keep Ellis, I doubt they’ll pay to keep Rinne.
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by George E. Ays on Aug 16, 2011 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
yes, you’re right about the salaries on Keith and Seabrook and not the cap hits, good point. but even they are not Weber. If you’re proclaimed or perceived to be the best D in the league then you will get paid like one. I seriously believe that 10 years for $80M or thereabouts will be the deal that nets a team a guy like Weber. You’re talking over 5 years from now when $8M per might be an average salary for an elite D. Inflation is guaranteed to skyrocket when the economy finally settles (if ever) making the value of a $$ go down so $8M say 7 years from now won’t buy what it used to (but I would like to have it anyway, lol).
I totally disagree on Rinne. The Preds have one shot at winning and that’s with one of the best goalies in the league in nets because there is no way they will be able to field enough good players to win and have an average goalie in nets. No way. If anything, Suter will be the guy to go as Ryan Ellis can take his place very nicely.
by Richter1994 on Aug 16, 2011 12:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Which Rinne is the real Rinne?
32-16-5, .911, 2.53
33-22-9, .930, 2.12
Nashville’s had a few goalies have really big years in their history. They haven’t shown a trend of keeping them around. Rinne’s a little different than Ellis and Mason in that his big year came in his 3rd rather than 1st year, but they have arguably the best goaltending prospect depth in the league, including one of the top 5 or so in Lindback. Even if Rinne duplicates his results from last year, they’re not very likely to break the bank for him, especially at the expense of the two d-men, and again, given the choice, I’m sure they’ll be more likely to part with Suter if they did.
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by George E. Ays on Aug 16, 2011 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions
you see George that’s why I like “bantering” with you, lol. If I were to rank goalies then I would rank them this way, and it’s not for any one year but going forward: King (I know I’m biased), Rinne, Hiller (not Miller, lol). fact is that the King has been the best goalie over all the seasons since the lockout (1st goalie to start a career with 6 30 game winning seasons in NHL history). have there been goalies with better single years? yup. we just saw Thomas have one. but overall I believe these will be the guys that do it year after year. Price, who finally has his head straight, is honorable mention. so with that in mind and the fact that there is no way on God’s green earth that the Preds can spend enough to get top scoring forwards to score I believe that the back end will be emphasized and that Ryan Ellis can replace Suter. I do agree on Lindback 100% though that he is great. But goalies are so much tougher to transition into the NHL so it’s a crapshoot.
At least someone else agrees with me on Hiller.
I get that there’s a chance Rinne’s sustainably good, but I’m saying that Nashville doesn’t strike me as an organization that’s going to spend 10% of their cap on goaltending.
If Rinne will come back for, say, $4m, then he’ll be back. All I’m saying is they’re not going to pay him $5.5-6m if the cost of doing so is one of their all-star defensemen, especially with the goalie market what it is these days.
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by George E. Ays on Aug 16, 2011 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions
I like Hiller a lot. good up and coming goalie. we just don’t get to see him too much. as for the Preds and Rinne, you may very well be right. who has the same goalie playing for them year after year? not nearly as many as used to be (write it down, Bryz will be a bust in relation to his contract in Philly. he ain’t in the desert anymore). only a hand full of teams when you come down to it. Rinne will require $5M-$6M per at some point so maybe they stay with the RFA types in nets. I would love to get Suter if he does end up being the odd man out. Even he will be $6M+ per. If the Rangers got him then he would fill the final real void on this team and they could really contend (assuming the King’s good health). Preds’ back end: Weber, Suter, Ryan Ellis, and Rinne. Just sick, lol.
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