Major issue facing the team
by jm187l on Aug 27, 2011 1:46 PM EDT
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PrintFor the most part, there are 2 issues that have been thought of as the Rangers main problems over the past couple years. Those would be the lack of a number 1 center and a PP QB. Bringing in Brad Richards addresses both of those issues, but the one issue the team hasn't addressed (and really can't) is the lack of offense from the blue line.
If you look at the last bunch of Cup winners, they all have one thing in common: multiple defensemen that are legitimate offensive threats. The Bruins had Chara, Seidenberg, and Kaberle (who took some heat, but was definitely still a huge part of the playoff run). The Hawks had Duncan Keith (69 points in the regular season and a Norris) and Brian Campbell. The Pens had Gonchar, Letang and Goligoski. The Wings had Nick Fuckin' Lidstrom and Rafalski.
My main concern is that the Rangers don't have anything even remotely resembling those kinds of threats from the blue line. If MDZ develops his offensive ability and shows that he's no longer a liability defensively he could be a major asset, but otherwise the cupboard's kinda bare. The way the league is now, the ability to create space and time with the puck is probably the most important part of offensive success. Part of why Gaborik had a hard time producing last year, aside from the shoulder, was that a d-man would take him to the boards and either 1 or 2 forwards would back check on him hard and take all his space and options away. Teams wouldn't be able to do that if we had blue-liners rushing up to take that empty space and create chances, and we all know what Gabby can do if he gets even an inch of space.
Erixon is kind of a wild card in that reports vary on what kind of puck mover he is. Some say he's got high end offensive talent, others say he's just solid. Staal's still young and may develop some more offense, and same goes for McD. Sauer seems like he's basically just going to be Girardi with a bit more snarl, essentially a non-factor with the puck. MDZ is the team's biggest hope for a blue-liner with top end ability to create offense. Bryan McCabe didn't count because he was absolutely terrible.
There's nothing wrong with having an excess of solid players - we have plenty of solid and reliable forwards and few guys who have elite ability, and our d-men are nothing but solid. The problem is that being solid only gets you so far. Without a few guys on D who know how to create, the ceiling for this Ranger team isn't as high as we all want it to be.
So what do you guys think? Do we cross our fingers and pray that Staal and McD get some offense into their games and MDZ becomes everything we hope he can be? Are there some moves we should consider making? Am I just worrying too much and overstating the issue? Let me know what you all think, because now that we have Richards I think this is really the last obstacle between us and winning a Cup.
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I’d rather staal continue to concentrate on being one of the premier shut down d-men in the league with his partner in crime girardi. also both staal and girardi were top 10 on our roster in points respectively. Ryan seemed to concentrate more on being a defensive minded forward and learning the speed of the game rather than try to score and i think that was rightly so. the NHL is so much quicker than ncaa and major juniors and it takes time to get up to speed. i think we’ll see more point out puts from Ryan McD.
A much more important aspect of those championship defensive cores was the fact they had many guys who could play DEFENSE and play it well. We have that type in spades and IMO while we don’t have a “threat” per say on the blue line we have several young guys who can make good first passes. And anyone else notice that nearly every single time Sauer pinched that he kept the play alive and never got caught. To me reading the play like that can be just as effective as being a more stretch it out kind of d-man. Now I’m not kidding myself, I know Sauer isn’t going to put up 40 pts a year but my point is you don’t have to be in order to facilitate offense from the back end.
This is the last real void on the roster and it will probably have to come from the outside at the trade deadline. I don’t trust MDZ right now and Torts is not going to insert him into the line-up if he can’t play adequate defense. He really should start with the Whale. Wait to see who becomes available prior to Feb and see how it goes. We have BR on the PP so that at least closes the gap a little.
Getting MDZ back in the game
If people are so worried about MDZ’s defense put him with Staal. Here’s the best way to get MDZ’s game back in terms of defenseman.
MDZ-Staal
Girardi-Erixon
Sauer-Mcdonagh
Eminger extra
That way you don’t have to cringe with MDZ on the ice with Erixon. You put the rookie to be Erixon with a solid shutdown defenseman, and you keep the sophomores Sauer and Mcdonagh together. This is the best way to get MDZ back on his feet and then when him and Erixon are ready for responsibility you put them together as your 3rd pairing.
Also, keep in mind we aren’t going to be double shifting as much this year, so it’s good for Girardi and Staal so they don’t have to play such big minutes.
John Tortorella on 24/7 will be like Ari Gold on Entourage.
I am the f*cking game pal - Johnny Drama
You wanna hug it out? Let's hug it out bitch - Ari Gold
I practice Prustbyterianism
by RichieToGabbySCORE on Aug 27, 2011 7:11 PM EDT reply actions
why not just put him with the whale at first to get his game back? what’s the harm? besides, you can’t have MDZ, Erixon, Eminger, and MZA all on the roster because the Rangers will be over the regular cap unless someone gets traded.
Well I guess you don’t have MZA on the roster. And when did I mention him in the first place? If you were going to put MZA on the roster you swap out EC to make it work. You can’t even move Avery to the Whale because he was claimed off of re-entry waivers.
Why not just send him to the Whale you ask? IMO being at the Whale won’t help him because it’s just going to upset him more. It’s a shitty life to say the least being in the AHL especially when you know your better than your competition like MDZ does. It’s not MDZ’s game that needs work (well he needs to improve defensively obviously) but for him it’s a mental block. He’s not making the right decisions on the ice and playing at a lower level of competition won’t help his vision on reading plays.
Sure if he makes a mistake or two for the whale it doesn’t affect the Rangers, but he also might get away with some bad plays I.E. making poor passes, holding onto to the puck too long, not making the correct read, etc, etc. Now that could reinforce some of his bad habits.
Michael Del Zotto is an extremely talented player who should be given time on the Rangers to work out some of his flaws. The kid has way too much upside to not be given a chance. How many successful under 21 defenseman are there in the league? Not many, and the one’s that are like Drew Doughty, Cam Fowler, and Victor Hedman also still have issues in their game that need work.
It’s sad that people are ready to give up on him so quickly. Maybe the mistake the Rangers made was letting him play opening night at the age of 19. MDZ recently said he was going to not be on twitter for a while because he wants to get his head on straight about strictly focusing on hockey. You better believe it because this is a contract year for him, and I expect him to show up to camp ready to play, and ready to be that offensive defenseman the Rangers need.
John Tortorella on 24/7 will be like Ari Gold on Entourage.
I am the f*cking game pal - Johnny Drama
You wanna hug it out? Let's hug it out bitch - Ari Gold
I practice Prustbyterianism
by RichieToGabbySCORE on Aug 27, 2011 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions
I’m not giving upon MDZ at all. I want to give him every opportunity to succeed and “forcing” him on the roster will not do him any favors, IMO. It could be a set back and then what? Why not let him get his game back at the Whale especially after coming off injury, let him settle in, and then call him up when he’s ready? I mentioned MZA only because of the cap issues of having all those players I mentioned on the roster. Not having MZA on at least the 3rd line and PP will be a big mistake as I think he will do really well this year. 23 pts in his first year here isn’t too bad and now he knows what to expect. MZA has a lot of skill and they need to find a spot for him.
MDZ will make the Rangers Roster… regardless of his play last season, he will be an RFA at the end of the year, which Joe has repeatedly pointed out, basically that means they have to know what they have with him before they hold onto him or let him go. Letting go of him is the last thing in their minds, however working on a contract for him since he is not Arbitration eligible will be a struggle if he plays in the AHL all year. This also effects what the rangers may do at the deadline or at the draft next season, my bet is on him making the team and playing…
Speaking directly to the post, most of the players mentioned don’t have the offense flow through them… you can make an argument for Keith, Campbell, Kaberle and Gonchar however you have to remember that Campbell and Gonchar make their living on the PP and are more of a liability defensively all of the rest of the Defenseman mentioned are primarily Defenseman. Lidstrom, Chara, Rafalski, Seidenberg are good defenseman and are not offensive defenseman…. They can contribute offensively, but are not offensive minded…
Defense won the bruins the cup, not offense from their defenseman… Detriot has unbelievable forwards as do Chicago. Letang has skill, but faded after Crosby left the lineup.
I would not say offensive defenseman win championships, their numbers are statistically pretty, but what doesn’t show up is the amount of goals prevented by playing good Defense…
@clalicata17
rafalski, and chara have a bomb of a shot and Lidstrom being the greatest defenseman ever also has offensive skill.
John Tortorella on 24/7 will be like Ari Gold on Entourage.
I am the f*cking game pal - Johnny Drama
You wanna hug it out? Let's hug it out bitch - Ari Gold
I practice Prustbyterianism
by RichieToGabbySCORE on Aug 30, 2011 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions
yes they have atom bombs for shots, but it is not their offense that wins teams games, chara is well known for clearing the creasing and making Thomas’s life so much easier…
Rafalski has always been a savy and smart defensive player, and lidstrom is one of the best defensemen ever, and in no way are any of those three players, a mike green esq player, or a wing playing defense, they all are highly defensively responsible…
Anybody who watched the stanley cup playoffs saw Tomas Kaberle become a liability on the ice for his soft and weak defensive play…
Hockey as far a defenseman is changing… more and more the 2-way defender is being meshed and you start to see a lot more players whom are like drew doughty, or what marc staal is beginning to become a defenseman who can play shut down defefense when he needs to and can score when he needs to, obviously there are going to be players that are able to excel at offense more than others, same example staal and doughty, doughty being the more offensive inclined player.
There is less of an emphasis on being a stay at home defenseman vs an offensive defenseman. Instead it’s more defensive defenseman vs Two way defenseman… reason being is that it is very hard to hide a defenseman who is weak defensively…
@clalicata17
by Clalicata17 on Aug 31, 2011 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Mike Green should be a forward because the guy literally cannot play defense. He even admits to that which is sad.
But in hockey you always have had the more offensively skilled defenseman.
Denis Potvin (sadly)
Booby Orr
Brian Leetch
Paul Coffey
Chris Chelios
What do they have in common? Well they are all hall of famers but they are great offensive defenseman. But they could play defense as well as anyone in the league.
John Tortorella on 24/7 will be like Ari Gold on Entourage.
I am the f*cking game pal - Johnny Drama
You wanna hug it out? Let's hug it out bitch - Ari Gold
I practice Prustbyterianism
by RichieToGabbySCORE on Aug 31, 2011 6:22 PM EDT up reply actions
all of those guys played during a different time period… you can’t clutch, grab, hook, hold now like they could then… which means if you get out of position you just hook and hack at the guys legs unpenalized… you can’t compare those guys to the new mold of hockey…
guys today whom are good offensive defensemen… Green, Kaberle, Boyle, Campbell all have one thing in common, they are soft dmen whom are not defensibly responsible…
guys today whom are 2 way defenders… Lidstrom, Keith, Doughty, Yandle, Burns, even rafalski
you will always have the guys that are monsters on the blueline like pronger or chara whom possess the booming shot, but a big shot doesn’t not mean they are offensive players, Chara is a smart defensive player as is pronger, but in no way are the offensive minded, but they aren’t offensively inclined… hockey is seeing a change in defensive philosophy and it’s the 2 way defender like i mentioned earlier…
Then you have the blue line studs… the Shea Weber type player…
Smart teams know that offensive defensemen are weak defensively (speaking in generalities) thats why they have opted to look for the total defense by opting for the 2way defenders whom can contribute in both ends of the ice and add points from the blue line by committee… a few years ago before letang and goligoski, it was gonchar manning the point for the pens and when he got hurt the pp was awful…
Defense won the bruins a cup, not the offense of their defenseman… IMO they only offensively minded dman on the team was Kaberle who looked like a sedin sister during the playoffs… In all reality, Tim Thomas won that series…
@clalicata17
by Clalicata17 on Aug 31, 2011 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions
I get what you're saying
Guys who get labeled as “offensive d-men” are generally guys like Mike Green who have clear offensive abilities but are often liabilities on defense. Guys like Keith, Lidstrom, Chara, Pronger, Weber, etc. are all around blue-liners who can shut guys down defensively.
The point was that teams that have won the cup since the lockout tend to have a couple all-around guys or one all-around guy and an offensive guy who help create chances and space from the blue-line. To wit: Chara had about 45 points last year. Since the lockout Lidstrom has scored 80 points (05-06), 62 points(06-07 and last year), 70 points (07-08), 59 points (08-09), and 49 (09-10). Keith had 69 points the cup year. Pronger’s had over 50 points 3 times since the lockout, over 40 twice, and was only at 25 last season because he missed over 30 games and was hurt all year. Ryan Suter gets about 40 points a year, and over the last 3 seasons Shea Weber has gotten 50, 43, and 48. On top of that, all those guys will shut down anyone.
No one can argue that the Rangers’ D plays excellent shutdown defense. But Staal had his career high in points last year with 29 points. Girardi had a career high at 31. Again, it’s great to have a shutdown pair like those 2. Watching them against guys like Crosby and Ovechkin is always worth the price of admission. But in order to take the next step towards the Cup, this team needs guys who are going to pack some punch offensively from the back line. That’s my point.
And, quick aside, Kaberle didn’t live up to his high billing for sure. But watching those games and seeing how the Canucks handled him on the ice, you can’t argue that simply having him there helped create space for the forwards, and he still has a quality first pass.
I would not say offensive defenseman win championships, their numbers are statistically pretty, but what doesn’t show up is the amount of goals prevented by playing good Defense…
Exactly.
Girardi and Staal were both as productive as Seidenberg last year. 4-27-31 for DG, 7-22-29 for MS, 7-25-32 for DS.
No, we don’t have Norris-level offensive production on the back end right now, but MDZ is not the solution to that either He doesn’t have the defense that any of those guys have.
Staal’s getting near the age where guys start to make the leap (26 or so). Girardi’s underrated offensively because he doesn’t have the cannon on the backend. Erixon put up nearly 0.5 ppg in the very difficult to score SEL. They’ll have enough from the backend to keep teams honest.
I mean, we had McCabe last year who has a cannon and a history of 40 point seasons, does any one believe he added that much to the team?
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by George E. Ays on Sep 1, 2011 11:59 AM EDT up reply actions
McCabe
You watched McCabe play. He was a mediocre defenseman even when he was putting up 40 points, last year he looked like Wade Redden’s slightly-lower-paid twin. Guys who were somewhat effective half a decade ago aren’t the type of guys I’m suggesting the team needs.
And hopefully Staal does make a bit of a leap without losing any of his shutdown ability. That would make him one of the league’s top guys, and his contract would be a serious bargain. Best case scenario, that happens with Staal and McD in a few years. I’m referring more to as is.
Stu Hackel agrees with me, apparently
Food for thought: http://nhl-red-light.si.com/2011/08/30/the-nhls-biggest-gambles/
It’s pretty obvious we don’t have an offensive defenseman on the level you mentioned, but Stu’s point is much more about the lack of experience than the lack of offense.
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by George E. Ays on Sep 1, 2011 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions
Why not give MDZ a shot
I mean give MDZ a shot in camp and if he looks good start the year with him and let erixon play w whale I have a feeling too many people are counting on erixon and thats not smart . Just a feeling but MDZ will be ready this year and if so Erixon can play in the AHL and get ready for next year
4 years of playing against men in the Swedish Elite League. I think he’s ready. Erixon and MDZ should BOTH make the roster.
John Tortorella on 24/7 will be like Ari Gold on Entourage.
I am the f*cking game pal - Johnny Drama
You wanna hug it out? Let's hug it out bitch - Ari Gold
I practice Prustbyterianism
by RichieToGabbySCORE on Sep 1, 2011 4:56 PM EDT up reply actions
I know I won’t be taken seriously, but, S. Eminger at some point in his career was considered an offensive defenseman. I know, I know……. but I think given a chance again, I think he can produce for the Rangers. I know with all the defensive prospects we have, he will probably not see much ice time. (Even B. Bell says he is expecting to make the roster?) With all the defensive prospects we have, I am going to state the obvious that a trade down the line is going to happen.
I have posted this several times, when watching the Rangers come back against the Bruins, Emi was one of the overall best players on the ice.
Anyways, with the solid defense that we have, I don’t think their lack of offense is a liability. I think we are all going to be pleasantly surprised this season………….Cup run………….
PRUSTOSTERONE!!!
Eminger is a solid gap filler
We do need Eminger but he is not the answer for production at the blue line. Eminger who isnt old is our seasoned veteran. Last year he stepped up whenever we needed him to and never complained about his role on the team, an excellent player to have.
He isnt an incredible dman and he isnt lights out offensively either, he is passable and can get the job done when asked.
If we have an injury Eminger will fill in and be solid in the role, if one of the kids are in a funk Eminger will step in an be solid, we cant expect more out of him then being solid.
Although I have said all that if there is a point spot left on the second powerplay unit I wouldnt mind seeing Eminger get it as a reward for solid play when he is not scratched and playing strong.
With that said I would love to see what Boyle could do on the point, I dont see his slap shot much but a guy his size has to have a big shot. He also played defense before he became a center so he wouldnt be a liability back there. Boyle on the point Anisimov infront of the net could be great on the powerplay.
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